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Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux


2003-12-28 09:49:34 PM
kylix2
hi all,
i read and read in many newsgroups ...
now my summary ...
MS changes from win32 to .Net, okay, we can nothing do against it ...
We can discuss, if this is a good way or not, i personally think not,
and there are many reasons for thinking so ...
(And i also believe that the world wide communities of managers, users
and softwaredevelopers don't want to pay money for a "big brother" in
there computers)
Now, whats with Linux?
Uff, yes, what is with Linux.
1) It could be an alternative to windows, but now i think it isn't
really one ...
We use computers to make our daily work, and its Office-work,
communication, etc. (think on little or large companies)
For communication Linux on Desktop is okay ...
For Office-work its not, now, perhaps soon ...
The reason why windows is going so big was, that there was a lot
of different UNIX-Versions, no ONE, and X-Windows comes to late,
and UNIX and X-Windows was to expensive and you needed an expensive
hardware ..., and with windows you had a lot of very good software
developng tools ..., Apple was also to expensive, and had no good
developing tools, till now ...
So, LINUX is comming ..., running on PC, is growing, becomes a very
good server-solution for ISPs, Database-Servers and so on ...
It was not so expensive (server-licences) and and ...
But what happens now?
Linux is going to be a Desktop System too ... (how long time it needs?)
But what Linux: RedHeat? SUSE? Mandrake?, and and and ...
I fear, the same happens as with UNIX, i know there are differents ...
And look the new prices! Okay, if you are a Linux-freak, you can
make your own free and cheap Linux, nice, but this is only a small group ...
What really happens with Linux depents from managers in small
and big companies, if they decide what new OS shall be used for the
business. The most important reasons are the "Costs" and if the "company
can do the job with this IT".
........................................................................
BUT ONE INPORTANT REASON is also: FULLY DEPENTECE FROM MICROSOFT?
GIVE UP THE PRIVACY? MY DATA IS MY DATA, AND NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO
LOOK IN MY DATA OR TO ALTER AUTOMATICALLY MY BOUGHT SOFTWARE PRODUCT!
THIS IS ONE OF MOST IMPORTANT PHILOSOPHY QUESTIONS FOR NOW AND THE
FUTURE! AND IT HAVE TO DO WITH HUMAN RIGHTS!
........................................................................
SO, "MICROSOFT" or "LINUX" is not only a technical decision, it's much
more, it's a decision over "dictatorship and spying" or "free plural
democracy and privacy".
BUT: "free plural democracy and privacy" doesn't mean: cracks and steel
software, and nothing to pay for the work of others ...
BUT: In a world of "Dictatorship and Spying" and "maximization of
profit" and "monopolism" there such things happens ....
BUT ONE THNG I KNOW exactly, because the human history shows us:
Dictatorship and Spying have a short livetime! SO its on Microsoft, what
they decide for the future! I hope they find the right way, and don't go
the wrong one ...
So, Borland?
Borland makes developing tools for MS-Windows, thats their business, and
if Microsoft is going to .Net, they have to go to .NET also ...
Borland i think, have no choice in this (win23 has no future) ...
What they do, is to show us a way (with Delphi 8) to migrate in this new
technology ....
(AND I HAVE TO SAY: IF the DELPHI-DEVELOPERS go away form BORLAND, then
no longer BORLAND will exists, i have to say: DELPHI = BORLAND and vice
versa, and thats not only historical: TurboPascal = BORLAND = DELPHI,
for C++, Java, and so on there are enough alternatives, but not for
DELPHI - till now, but i think, if we need an alternative, because
Borland let us sty in the rain, then there alternatives will comming)
And Kylix? If Borland is analysing there business, they see the two
worlds: The "Microsoft way" and the "Linux way".
Early they decided to do something for the Linux-world (Kylix p.e.,
JAVA, and so on), it was a good decision for the future to do something
for the LINUX-world, not for the first years ...
So they could make Developing Tools for bouth worlds, and Delphi
developer has a good chance to make software for bouth worlds, wonderfull!!!
But what happens?
1) The Delphi-chief-developer was going to Microsoft (okay his decision)
(and i never heared from him, where is he? what he is doing now?)
2) Microsoft invested in Borland ....
Now we can see following:
1) Borland supports 100% the new Microsoft way (.NET, Longhorn, usw.)
2) Kylix (the Unix-world) is no longer developed
3) we become no official statemants from Borland about this ...
mhm, okay, Borland supports .NET, this is okay, because is the future
of the Microsoft way ...
(But i also fear, that Borland is now bounded with the "Microsoft way").
But Kylix is no longer developed? Why this?
I think following:
- If the world-wide Delphi-developer-community has a realy good
developer tool (Delphi Linux) to make software for LINUX, then LINUX
could be in a very short time, a software-rich-Desktop System.
Now you know the reason, why Kylix is not longer supported and developed
by Borland. And Borland? Knowbody nows from us, what way
Borland will go in the future ...
The best way for Borland would be:
ONE DELPHI, for win23, .NET and LINUX!
With a price, so also small companies and developers can buy it!
It's allways better to sell 600.000 copies with 1000$ as
150.000 copies with 3000$, or not?
Gerhard
 
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

Quote
Now you know the reason, why Kylix is not longer supported and developed
by Borland. And Borland? Knowbody nows ..., what way
Borland will go in the future ...

Perhaps something like Lazarus,the free delphi clone, will become the
aswer? It does linux and win32, but not .net.
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

prom wrote:
Quote
- If the world-wide Delphi-developer-community has a realy good
developer tool (Delphi Linux) to make software for LINUX, then LINUX
could be in a very short time, a software-rich-Desktop System.
Also for the Mac. One can just dream of having one excellent development
tool, not priced out of reach for the small-time programmer, which can be
source compatible across all the main platforms. But that dream is Gates &
company's nightmare.
<{*word*97}-mode>
In a similar way, wide usage of Delphi (especially USA) and having Delphi
on PC/Linux/Mac would make software development easier and less time-
consuming in general. That would decimate the software industry as a
money-churning machine, quite likely leaving large numbers of people
without work. (Because transitioning people into better creative computer
work would be slow.) If one notices, the world government and economies
are built upon the base of keeping money moving and taxed, and all the
latest gadgets being sold, used for a while, and replaced. Adopting a SW
tool which (as it seems to be generally agreed) cuts development time by
a factor of ten, would threaten keeping people employed, busy and churning
the money. What would happen to the legions of programmers - and
their managers? C++/Java/and all keep many people occupied - not Delphi.
Another thing to consider, is that except that OS's and programs get
fatter and
require more resources (CPU, RAM, HD), then there would be very little
market for the new stuff. How can Intel, WD/Maxtor/etc. make money if
all the new OS's and programs could run well enough on an old computer?
</{*word*97}-mode>
It wouldn't shock me if Gates is pulling Borland's strings to prevent Delphi
from threatening his Windows OS near-monopoly. Or many other things.
Thanks for seeding my rant and "vent."
Walter
 

{smallsort}

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

Look at freepascal and lazarus.
Walter wrote:
Quote
prom wrote:

>- If the world-wide Delphi-developer-community has a realy good
>developer tool (Delphi Linux) to make software for LINUX, then LINUX
>could be in a very short time, a software-rich-Desktop System.


Also for the Mac. One can just dream of having one excellent development
tool, not priced out of reach for the small-time programmer, which can be
source compatible across all the main platforms. But that dream is Gates &
company's nightmare.

<{*word*97}-mode>
In a similar way, wide usage of Delphi (especially USA) and having Delphi
on PC/Linux/Mac would make software development easier and less time-
consuming in general. That would decimate the software industry as a
money-churning machine, quite likely leaving large numbers of people
without work. (Because transitioning people into better creative computer
work would be slow.) If one notices, the world government and economies
are built upon the base of keeping money moving and taxed, and all the
latest gadgets being sold, used for a while, and replaced. Adopting a SW
tool which (as it seems to be generally agreed) cuts development time by
a factor of ten, would threaten keeping people employed, busy and churning
the money. What would happen to the legions of programmers - and
their managers? C++/Java/and all keep many people occupied - not Delphi.

Another thing to consider, is that except that OS's and programs get
fatter and
require more resources (CPU, RAM, HD), then there would be very little
market for the new stuff. How can Intel, WD/Maxtor/etc. make money if
all the new OS's and programs could run well enough on an old computer?
</{*word*97}-mode>

It wouldn't shock me if Gates is pulling Borland's strings to prevent
Delphi
from threatening his Windows OS near-monopoly. Or many other things.

Thanks for seeding my rant and "vent."

Walter

--
Thomas Miller
Delphi Client/Server Certified Developer
BSS Accounting & Distribution Software
BSS Enterprise Accounting FrameWork
www.bss-software.com
sourceforge.net/projects/dbexpressplus
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

Yes, I'm playing with it. But don't you think it odd that (guessing) a
few dozen people can produce fpc and Lazarus for Windows, Linux
and soon Mac in their spare time, while a large corporation can't do it
because it's "too expensive" and "there's no profit in it?" Seems like
very poor, short sighted, and hard to believe excuses to me.
Thomas Miller wrote:
Quote
Look at freepascal and lazarus.

 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

"Walter" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Yes, I'm playing with it. But don't you think it odd that (guessing) a
few dozen people can produce fpc and Lazarus for Windows, Linux
and soon Mac in their spare time, while a large corporation can't do it
because it's "too expensive" and "there's no profit in it?" Seems like
very poor, short sighted, and hard to believe excuses to me.
Nothing odd or hard to believe at all.
The Red Cross is a non-profit organization. Could/should large corporations
try to compete with or duplicate Red Cross projects? Is it "short sighted"
if they don't?
Likewise, Open Source is not profit oriented. Mere survival of an Open
Source project doesn't automatically make it worthwhile for a profit driven
corporation.
History shows that the profit motive drives innovation. Remove it and
progress and innovation eventually declines to the point of stagnation. I
see no reason to exempt Open Source from this proven historical trend.
Where it makes good economic sense, "large corporations" will pick up the
ball and run with it once Open Source drops it.
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

JQP wrote:
Quote
Nothing odd or hard to believe at all.

The Red Cross is a non-profit organization. Could/should large corporations
try to compete with or duplicate Red Cross projects? Is it "short sighted"
if they don't?

Likewise, Open Source is not profit oriented. Mere survival of an Open
Source project doesn't automatically make it worthwhile for a profit driven
corporation.

History shows that the profit motive drives innovation. Remove it and
progress and innovation eventually declines to the point of stagnation. I
see no reason to exempt Open Source from this proven historical trend.

Where it makes good economic sense, "large corporations" will pick up the
ball and run with it once Open Source drops it.

Your analogy doesn't fit. Software is not mainly an excercise in giving
away goods and services, like the Red Cross. Once a code base is done,
it should be able to be leveraged to another similar use without too much
pain (Windows -->Linux -->Mac OS X). I understand it's not free, but
just find it odd that 'a few good men' (to steal a phrase) can succeed where
a corporation headed by "businessmen" cannot even (apparently) see the
vision.
I believe a better comparison is that told to me about ham radio
satellites -
a commercial communication satellite costs hundreds of millions of dollars,
while a simpler but effective ham radio satellite gets built for a few
million.
(Don't quote me on exact costs.) Yes, there's a difference in requirements
and salaries that are part of the reason for the price difference. But
the big
difference is corporate overhead, from million dollar CEO's to the bean
counters to the attorneys to the man or woman sitting next to you that isn't
doing anything useful (for whatever reason). Innovation does not come
so much from corporations slogged in overhead, but from the little guys
who aren't tied to conventional methods and don't have their thinking in
a quarterly-report rut.
Yet I think that's only part of it. I'm still suspicious that a fear of
losing
the money churning energy is what drives most corporate products and
plans, and that this stifles innovation that would cut users (i.e. software
producers) time and money costs. (The long history of suppression of
automobile gas mileage improvement technology is similar, imo.)
If the fpc people get it more robust, and the Mac code going as well,
maybe Borland would follow along so they could say "us too." But
clearly they are not the innovators on this front. But I keep hoping.
Walter
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

"Walter" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Your analogy doesn't fit. Software is not mainly an excercise in giving
away goods and services, like the Red Cross.
Mince words if you like but it appears to me that Open Source software *is*
mainly an exercise in giving away the goods and services of programmers.
Quote
Innovation does not come
so much from corporations slogged in overhead, but from the little guys
who aren't tied to conventional methods and don't have their thinking in
a quarterly-report rut.
Yes, Open Source are the true innovators.
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

I think there are many small and also bigger companies, that made
software with Delphi, and are happy that Delphi exists, and with the new
Microsoft Philosophy with .NET we have a lot to do, BUT, in this point
of decision, we can also do a lot in the LINUX way.
With other words, its possible that we shall get a half .NET world
(Longhorn), and a half LINUX world.
In Germany and other countries Linux will grow dramatically in the next
three years, i am sure about this ....
Therefore, it's also for the Delphi-Devlopers very important, that we
can support both worlds.
And Borland?
They give us Delphi 8 .NET, as the first thing to make steps to .NET,
But they stopped Kylix, mhm ....
If Delphi cannot support both worlds, then we and Borland have a serious
problem. A really serious one!
I am dreaming about a new Delphi, that support .NET, win32, LINUX and
perhaps other OS, like the Macintosh. How long can we wait till this new
Delphi? Till the end of 2007? I think NO!
Therefore an open source project, like Lazarus can be the way ...
But they need a lot of good developers to will be faster and really
usable with database projects, like with Interbase/Firebird, Oracel,
MySQL and so on ...
(And open source projects are okay, think on Linux itself, Apache,
PHP, MySQL and Firebird, and and ...)
My dream could also be, that Borland can be a serious partner of a
open source project, like p.e. Lazarus, why not?
Or make a new one? You think, the "business" is the reason?
You have no fantasy. Borland could be the father of a new project,
semi open source, developers all over the world can be involved,
at least there is a new product: DelphiCross, and Borland sells this new
product with a price that Borland can earn enough, but not as a high
price solution. Mhm, okay nonsens, because CEOs have other rules they
have to follow, but this rules are not god given, this are very stupid
rules, in short thinking, short doing and at least with short live.
regards
Prom
JQP schrieb:
Quote
"Walter" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news:3ff11d45$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>Yes, I'm playing with it. But don't you think it odd that (guessing) a
>few dozen people can produce fpc and Lazarus for Windows, Linux
>and soon Mac in their spare time, while a large corporation can't do it
>because it's "too expensive" and "there's no profit in it?" Seems like
>very poor, short sighted, and hard to believe excuses to me.


Nothing odd or hard to believe at all.

The Red Cross is a non-profit organization. Could/should large corporations
try to compete with or duplicate Red Cross projects? Is it "short sighted"
if they don't?

Likewise, Open Source is not profit oriented. Mere survival of an Open
Source project doesn't automatically make it worthwhile for a profit driven
corporation.

History shows that the profit motive drives innovation. Remove it and
progress and innovation eventually declines to the point of stagnation. I
see no reason to exempt Open Source from this proven historical trend.

Where it makes good economic sense, "large corporations" will pick up the
ball and run with it once Open Source drops it.





 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

"prom" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
My dream could also be, that Borland can be a serious partner of a
open source project, like p.e. Lazarus, why not?
Uhhh ... because there's no money in it?
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

Quote
Uhhh ... because there's no money in it?
Seems that there is not much money in anything nowadays! <G>
Didier
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

Didier Largange schrieb:
Quote
>Uhhh ... because there's no money in it?


Seems that there is not much money in anything nowadays! <G>

Didier
do you think, in the moment there is money on kylix?
i think no, because on the other way Borland develop kylix and support
it. So it needs new strategies for Kylix and Borland, or not?
I am sure, that the early decision to make dev-tools for linux was
a good decision from borland, but they have to maximize the earnings in
one year cycles (Shareholdernonsens, you know). This is the real
reason for some stupid things what happens every day (Corel, Interbase
p.e., let Ann Harrsion go away, or to sell the Campus).
Since some years i miss the old spirit of Borland. I don't know why,
but all the "open words to the developers" i fear, are not based
on this spirit. Sad.
.NET is not the way, i am sure. You will see, all the Power of Microsoft
will not bring .NET to the world, as they think and hope.
.NET is Microsoft's answer for JAVA. Who need it?
I am with Borland since TurboPascal 3.0. This is a long time.
A new manager generation make now the rules in Borland, and they
are not based on the developers spirit. They are "business people".
They think they could make the same, as the "Microsoft business people",
but Borland customers are not Microsoft Customers.
They are "global thinking and critical" developers.
Mr. Borland we miss you ....
regards
Prom
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

Quote
do you think, in the moment there is money on kylix?
i think no, because on the other way Borland develop kylix and support
it. So it needs new strategies for Kylix and Borland, or not?
develop yes ... but not 100% sure about support, it could be "support" ;)
Quote
I am with Borland since TurboPascal 3.0. This is a long time.
A new manager generation make now the rules in Borland, and they
are not based on the developers spirit. They are "business people".
They think they could make the same, as the "Microsoft business people",
but Borland customers are not Microsoft Customers.
They are "global thinking and critical" developers.
agree.
Happy New Year , and hope that 2004 will give us K4 ;)
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

"Didier Largange" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Seems that there is not much money in anything nowadays! <G>
Some people want to have their cake and eat it too.
They want to go to heaven but they don't want to die.
They like "free" software but they want it neatly packaged with all the
care, professionalism and advantages of a market driven product.
And they fail to understand why they can't have both at the same time.
 

Re:Delphi - Kylix - .NET - Linux

JQP wrote:
[...]
Quote
History shows that the profit motive drives innovation. Remove it and
progress and innovation eventually declines to the point of stagnation. I
see no reason to exempt Open Source from this proven historical trend.
[...]
Rubbish - survival drives innovation.
B
--
www.mailtrap.org.uk/