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Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant


2003-07-13 11:00:36 AM
kylix1
juliusz wrote:
Quote
Just look at the Borland developer network site bdn.borland.com/
there is no any new technical articles related to Kylix or Linux
since the and of the 2002,
Don't read too much into that. It still says "Happy New Year" on the
BDN Delphi page. ;-)
Nothing new since end of 2002 hey? What about the GLIBC article here
dated April 22, 2003:
bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,29968,00.html
Quote
and gradually was removed from the Borland developer site the Linux
section
There isn't even a .NET section. Does that mean Borland isn't committed
to .NET? In fact _NO_ platforms are special sections at BDN. However,
there is a "platforms" sub-site:
bdn.borland.com/delphi/platforms/0,1418,10006,00.html
Quote
and recently the Kylix section it was Delphi/Kylix
now we have Delphi and the indicated support for Kylix never
materialized .. It doesn't seems to me like a way to promote an
existing or future version of the product.
And what Borland product is well promoted? *GRIN*
Borland's BDN site is language oriented now. C# is a language (that
works on Windows+.NET for now), Java is a language, Delphi is a language
(I know, some people still think it is an IDE- wrongly because Borland
has publicly stated that the language is called Delphi), and C++ is a
language. The only product-specific sections at BDN are AppServer,
Interbase, JDataStore, StarTeam and Together. Kylix is _NOT_ a
language. Linux is _NOT_ a language or a Borland product. Hence, no
special main section for them. Delphi or C++ are languages that can be
used in Kylix. It's that simple!
Cheers,
Kevin.
 
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

Ender wrote:
Quote
Do you know something about changing of policies of Borland towards Kylix?
Is there any info (fact) that may prove your thoughts?
Just speculation. It doesn't make sense for Borland to drop Kylix
completely. I have absolutely no doubt that Borland is working on Kylix
4.0. Why would they drop a chance to develop a market where Microsoft
doesn't play in?? After all, they had huge success going into Java
because Microsoft couldn't (or didn't want to) really play in that
space. In fact, Borland may not have been around today if it wasn't for
JBuilder. I'm quite sure they view Kylix in a similar light. Kylix is
a great opportunity for Borland. They've even used #1 Linux in their
biggest marketing drive in years. They'd be pretty foolish to pump up
their Linux support and then dump it when Linux is still going strong.
Borland isn't that stupid. Give them some credit.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:20:10 +0200, "Kristofer Skaug"
< XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
"Rosimildo da Silva" wrote
>
>JQP and Alesandro Fredericci are known to *hate* anything that is not
>directly related with Windows and MS. Things that they say makes no
>sense sometimes, it just pure hate of not being MS or Windows.

I strongly disagree. I have never read anything from either one that
indicates intrinsic hate for non-Windows OS'es.
M$ centric, perhaps, yes.

RemObjects has Kylix support so even M$centricity has to be suspect
although I understand what you mean. AF seems to lack the distaste
for MS that a lot of us have.
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

K>[...] Give them some credit.
Hm-m-m-m. We all giving credits to them since K1.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:31:33 +0200, "Kristofer Skaug"
< XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote

Of course you may criticize Borland for not complying with "the Linux way"
of doing things, i.e. open-sourcing Kylix. But the Delphi (Kylix) compiler
is simply a too valuable core part of their intellectual property to open
up.
The criticism seems not to be anything to do with open-sourcing Kylix
but more to do with resources allocated to the project.
Quote
So I think this is really a problem of two worlds that just do not mix well.

I think they can mix if the proprietary app maker has the commitment
and resources to make it work. It is possible - look at VMWare for
example. From their website: "As newer Linux kernels and
distributions are released, VMware modifies and tests its products for
stability and reliability on those host platforms."
www.vmware.com/products/desktop/ws_specs.html
Maybe the 'built for the standardized enterprise" theory is right and
Borland is making enough money selling to those types of customers.
If they want desktop developer customers, though, they need a more
VMWare-like approach.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

JQP wrote:
Quote
If they really want to accommodate, they should do some compatibility
testing in order to avoid breaking commercial products like Kylix every few
months.
..
"Commercial software ... we don't need no stinkin' commercial software".

Linux software vendors and distro makers do welcome any commercial
product for Linux, just you don't see it or you do not want to see it.
They do extensive testing with software they can change, recompile
etc... any other open source software makers supply appropriate builds
to the distro and they do the testing to make sure theirs software run
as expected and to be included in the final product (on the Linux
distro CD)
For a commercial product like Kylix, no much they can do, except to
include the trial version of it and to distribute and promote on
hundreds of distribution sites, the responsibility to perform
extensive testing for this product solely is of the software maker,
because only the software maker can do it. Kylix belongs to Borland
and only Borland controls it.
TrollTech with its multiplatform development environment does not have
any such problem you are groundlessly FUD around. The Qt library as
well as all the associated tools works perfectly on any new Linux
distribution as well on several different platforms. And TrollTech is
a commercial software vendor and Qt library is a commercial product
comparable in its purpose to Kylix. Oracle doesn't not have problem
with doing testing with distributions they want the product to work
with, same goes for IBM and hundreds of other commercial software
vendors. The Linux vendors do not brake deliberately the compatibility
of commercial products, the commercial software vendors can,if they
neglect to make sure that theirs product run correctly with the
current Linux technology, it is that simple.
juliusz
--
InstallMade - Kylix-specific installer/builder
www.superobject.com/installmade/
Packages: tar.gz, self-installable, RPM, LCR,
and creates standalone executables.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

Captain Jake wrote:
Quote

Which is why Linux remains a marginal player.

Perhaps, a marginal player yesterday, but not today or in the future,
Linux is the only real competitor to very popular Windows. And Linux
is a major headache for them, therefore it is a subject of extensive
PR campaign in attempts to slow it down. And competition is a good
thing... Amazingly, despite of all the efforts to FUD it, Linux is
the fastest growing operating system and just because of its
properties we can see sure and steady increased adoption rate of it by
governments, financial institutions, businesses and individuals .. Two
years ago, not too many people knew what Linux is, now it is
considered alternative, next two years a good percentage of computer
will be powered by Linux. And "must know" for any computer
professional.. The question is if Kylix will be still around.?
juliusz
--
InstallMade - Kylix-specific installer/builder
www.superobject.com/installmade/
Packages: tar.gz, self-installable, RPM, LCR,
and creates standalone executables.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

JQP wrote:
Quote

I never said it was *deliberate*.

They simply don't do any compatibility testing. As a result, any commercial
vendor (like Borland) is saddled with a continuous struggle for
compatibility with a multitude of ever changing distros and versions. There
is no denying this; Kylix is living proof.
Well, you said, it is your quote: “Commercial software ... we don't
need no stinkin' commercial software? but, if misread what this
insightful slogan mean, I apologize ;-)
But, they do compatibility testing as well the software makers do it,
that's why at average 2500 different software works with a new
distribution harmoniously among them many commercial products. And
taking Kylix as an example; Did you ever heard of the Kylix
compatibility program initiated by Borland in which many distros
participate and certify Kylix? Borland did not have problem with
providing patches for Kylix 1 - the “new kernel?issue and support
Kylix 2, so it is possible and strictly depends from the willingness
of the commercial software vendor...
What the Linux distro people more can do, with the commercial
product, if the compatibility test shows that the product do not work
correctly? The next step to do is for the software maker to provide
fixes to make the product work in this particular new environment. The
Linux operating system is extremely configurable, but to a certain
point only, the Linux distro maker has to wary about thousands
different applications not only one particular commercial product,
they do what they can, a rest of it depends on the commercial software
maker... Surely, it would be possible to modify any new distribution
to make Kylix run perfectly on it, but this will brake many other
important software on the system ... and Kylix as good as it is, is
not as important to do so.. Either, you play by the rules or you will
have to take your toys and go home...;-)
juliusz
--
InstallMade - Kylix-specific installer/builder
www.superobject.com/installmade/
Packages: tar.gz, self-installable, RPM, LCR,
and creates standalone executables.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

"juliusz" wrote
Quote

I just want to know (as possibly many others) what are the
plans for Kylix and why all the normally usual activities
around Kylix (as we experienced during the lifetime of K1
and K2 ) are standstill ? This simple information, I think,
Borland owns to developers ..
I agree, and I spawned a thread in delpih.non-tech yesterday to bring up
exactly this concern once more.
Kristofer
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

Ender wrote:
Quote
Assume you have an contract to
create some kind of information system. You should decide what base will be
used Linux or Windows. Then you have to estimate how much time you need, how
big expences will be, how many new things you should to evaluate and to use,
how difficult deployment and maintenance process will be when you create
this system.

It depends from, who is making the decision.
If you are (the programer) then most likely the best solution will be
that one you are most familiar with. If you are trained with Windows
the most likely you will spend lest time learning, resolving problems
on Windows . If you know Linux well and you are comfortable with this
operating system and you will not spend to much time to try to figure
out how things work then the obvious choice would be Linux for you,
that is.
If you are the decision makers and your priorities are cost,
effectiveness and security and you have a professional objective
advice, and you don't care who you hire to do the job a Windows
programer or Linux programer as long as the provided solution will be
cost effective and have a lower TCO on a longer period of time then
the final decision to use most likely will be Linux. And that's what
commonly hapends..
juliusz
--
InstallMade - Kylix-specific installer/builder
www.superobject.com/installmade/
Packages: tar.gz, self-installable, RPM, LCR,
and creates standalone executables.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

"Kristofer Skaug" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
M$ centric, perhaps, yes.
First and foremost, I am career centric. Software development is my job,
not my hobby. I am always looking for new opportunities. Unfortunately,
for a variety of reasons, Linux doesn't appear to be one at this time.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

"johnnie" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Then you want mine if LINUX will never win the Desktop platform war
and Windows will roule for the next centoury or so?
This is a question for Linux developers, distributors and promoters.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

"Andrew Walsh" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >, wrote these words of incredible
wisdom:
Quote
In the same family is KDevelop - an open source IDE that
has a lot of fans.
Kdevelop seems to be evolving into C++ version of Kylix.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

"ckd" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
RemObjects has Kylix support so even M$centricity has to be suspect
although I understand what you mean. AF seems to lack the distaste
for MS that a lot of us have.
For me, it's not a matter of taste, it's a matter of opportunity or the lack
thereof.
Compatibility is an old issue with *nix that Borland has apparently just
recently discovered. Linux doesn't change anything, it only makes it worse.
The Linux solution, make everything Open Source so the end user can tweak
and re-compile. Obviously not a viable solution for commercial software.
Hence, commercial Linux software and opportunities are severely limited.
The only hope I can see is the Mono project.
 

Re:Re: Bill Todd's comments in Delphi Informant

Kevin < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message news:<3f10ccb1$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM >...
Quote
They've even used #1 Linux in their
biggest marketing drive in years. They'd be pretty foolish to pump up
their Linux support and then dump it when Linux is still going strong.
I think your view is logical. In the non-U.S. world, where much of
Borland's market is anyway, Linux' trajectory is sharply up.
And if developers are uncertain, just learn to use Kylix in conjunction
with another tool, using shared libraries, like someone wisely suggested.
Like the gun nuts say: I'll give up Kylix when they pry my cold
dead fingers from it ;-)
But keep your linux development eggs in a couple different baskets, so
there's always a way to continue. If you like programming for linux you
should familiarize yourself with gcc and C++ anyway. And there are a couple
good books for programming with the QT frameworks. I don't like it as much
as VCL, but I do like it.