Board index » kylix » Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??


2003-12-11 11:53:12 AM
kylix2
"pNichols" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
[..]
Quote
The process however, as you correctly stated, as to what constitutes the
specifications of Java (J2SE, J2EE, J2ME) is a democratic process of all
of
those involved.
Democracies don't have kings or somebody with more rights than others <G>
 
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

XXXX@XXXXX.COM (Mike Margerum) wrote in news:3fd77b1e.4325459
@newsgroups.borland.com:
Quote
The reason kylix was doomed is because exactly 0% of linux developers
want to use object pascal and the VCL.
Impossible, because I want it <g>
And why do you think that the FreePascal team is so active? Do you think
that they do not really want OP?
Quote
If they had come out with a
compliant C++ compiler with a real C++ framework 5 years ago they
would have sold tons of it.
No, I do not think so. There are tons of C++ development tools out there,
so the competition is much higher.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Alessandro Federici" <alef@remobjects[remove-this].com>wrote in
Quote
Nonsense. Java has never been advertise or pushed as a cross platform
environment.
Sun and IBM push Java, not those variants. They are meaningless in
Enterprise development. Might be good for small shops, but you should
know what big companies go after.
Huh???
Quote
Kylix has been dommed since day one. The LInux world is not interested
in investing in technology by spending money.
They have different priorities and goals (this doesn't mean they are
bad. Just different.).
I do not think so. The is not just the {*word*155}-linux-community where you
might be right. There are also those people who see Linux as an extension
of the market.
I think that most Kylix-people come from Windows and want to develop on
Linux, too. And I think that many people were not so happy because the
"Delphi for Linux" does not run so smooth as the Windows-version does.
I think Borland should really consider looking at the worst problems and
provide a patch.
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

MM>I agreed with the rest of your post but Kylix wasnt doomed because
MM>the linux world doesnt want to spend money. [...]
Maybe this play some role but i'm don't think that it was main role. There
are few causes of Borland's failure with Kylix.
1. Ideologically antagonistic product for Linux with closed sources.
Especially with packages and dbExpress drivers.
2. Compiler not available on other platforms (UNIX'es).
3. Insufficient quality of product with absence of updates.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

p>>>No, it is called you are attempting to run a program with less
p>>>memory than is recommended.
Quote
>:-)))))) Interesting point of view. You trying to say that speed of
>:program depends from meeting memory requirements instead of actual
>memory usage?
>CBX perfectly fit into 384Mb. It take much less than 384Mb of memory,
>and it does not swap. So - memory is not the cause of slowdown.
p>How do you know it is running fine within 384 meg? Are you taking
p>into account JIT/JVM GC operations? I woud suspect you are right,
p>however, I would like to know how you know this.
top command show that only 68Mb is used by process. No other programs except
for KDE itself is loaded.
Quote
>Did you tried to install CBX? How you feel after speed of installer
>from
>Zero G? Clicking the check box take about second for switching check
>box state. PC - P5 with 512Mb of memory, for Windows and for Linux
>equally slow.
p>Zero G installer is slow, period.
Why i'm not surprised? :-) Oracle Enterprise manager is slow, period.
CBuilderX is slow, period. Mozilla (does it use Java?) is slow, period...
Quote
>BuilderX contain many more functions and libraries than Delphi or
>Kylix?
p>It will. I do not know if Borland left the options open for the plug
p>in or not (for the GUI Builder). I do not know (but I doubt it), that
p>Builder X is fully optimized now, since it is a more or less a
p>preview, not a final product.
p>However consider:
p>a Full De{*word*81} and compile environment for Borland C++ for Windows,
p>Intel 32 bit Compilers, Microsoft Visual C++ Compilers, Sun C++ Forte
p>Compilers,
p>Metroworks C++ Compilers, GNU C++ compilers.
Wait. It is environment for calling external compilers and de{*word*81}s. Why it
should be more complicated than Kylix or Delphi which carries integrated
compiler, de{*word*81}, GUI builder, component library, powerful code editor and
explorer itself? It (CBuilderX) does not use (load/run) de{*word*81} or compiler
unless developer instruct environment to compile or debug program.
p>Last time I looked, Delphi had only one compiler, and Linux only one
p>compiler. <G>Of course you know this will take some overhead to supply
p>this.
Please tell to me how external compiler (GCC) can create overhead for
CBuilderX in any time except for Make?
p>Add to this CVS integration, Rational Clear Case Integration, and
p>Visual Source Safe Integration. Also add Intel's VTune Integration.
p>Add the UML Modeler integration. Refactoring integration, XML Spy,
p>Corba
p>Development and Debug test environment, JavaDoc integration, etc.
Things you name just "cool words". Did this things run all the same time? It
is not used at all, at least by me. All that "integration" you named should
be dead and not consume any resources unless i try to use it.
p>None of what I listed is in Delphi, except Corba, which does not
p>support a full debug environment for Corba (Delphi was using a COM
p>wrapper for
p>Corba). I do not however, know about Delphi 7 and 8, since I have not
p>looked at either.
Do you claim that all this stuff actively working and slow down entrie
system while i'm editing code or navigating through menu?
p>Again, I do not know what GUI hooks are there or not. I do not
p>proclaim to be an expert with BuilderX, I have only breifly looked at
p>it. I do use
p>JBuilder however, everyday, and the list for the JB IDE is much more
p>extensive than anything Delphi has. Since they are sharing a common
p>IDE, and again, Builder X is a first release (without the GUI
p>builder),
I'm awaiting GUI bulder with fear. If they able to create program that
working slow even with trivial things, what we should expect from GUI
builder?
p>I doubt it has been optimised yet. I do know that JB 7 is not as fast
p>as JB X, nor is JB 9. JB 9 was the first to use JDK 1.4.x, whereas the
p>rest of the versions were built using 1.2 (JB 3, JB 3.5) or 1.3.x (4-7).
By the way i tried to on recomended optimizations of Java VM. Nothing
changed, at least visually.
p>Borland recommends a minimum of 512 meg and recommends 768 meg of
p>RAM. Since you are shy at least 128 meg, I do not now how it would
p>run on your machine.
The process used about ~70Mb of RAM. Why 384Mb of existing memory should
make any slowdown?
p>I can run JB X on 256 meg of Ram, but it runs quite a bit different from
p>256 meg to 512 meg or more of RAM. Speed difference is pretty
p>substantial.
Don't use it. I feel that JB closer to Delphi with functionality than
CBuilderX.
---
Andrew V. Fionik, Papillon Systems, Unix Programmers Group
For reply use "ender" instead of "fionika" in e-mail.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Andreas Prucha" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
[..]
Quote
I do not think so. The is not just the {*word*155}-linux-community where you
might be right. There are also those people who see Linux as an extension
of the market.
I think that most Kylix-people come from Windows and want to develop on
Linux, too. And I think that many people were not so happy because the
"Delphi for Linux" does not run so smooth as the Windows-version does.
Well, which group of developers do you think has the bigger mass on Linux?
The new ones coming from Windows or those that have been around LInux for
years and are {*word*155} fans?
Quote
I think Borland should really consider looking at the worst problems and
provide a patch.
Definitely, but I think CBX is a better place where to put efforts and gain
on the *nix platform.
MUCH better.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Alessandro Federici" <alef@remobjects[remove-this].com>wrote in
Quote
Well, which group of developers do you think has the bigger mass on
Linux? The new ones coming from Windows or those that have been around
LInux for years and are {*word*155} fans?
At the moment the {*word*155}-fans. However, I think that this is changing.
Just look at the developments in the public sector of several countries.
Companies will want to provide their software for Windows and for Linux.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Mike Marge" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
The standard in controlled by a democratic process but the product is
owned wholly by Sun.
Sun defines the JCP and sets the rules for it's operation.
Sun is the self-appointed chairman of the executive committee.
Sun determines who is allowed to participate in the JCP.
Sun implements any "recommendations" made by the JCP.
Doesn't sound like any "democratic process" I've seen. As I said earlier,
there is no doubt as to who owns and controls Java.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

"Andreas Prucha" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
[..]
Quote
At the moment the {*word*155}-fans.
Exactly ;-)
Quote
However, I think that this is changing.
[..]
It's a strong possibility. We'll see the evolution during the next years.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

Quote
Impossible, because I want it <g>

And why do you think that the FreePascal team is so active? Do you think
that they do not really want OP?

ok sorry, 1%. :)
Quote
No, I do not think so. There are tons of C++ development tools out there,
so the competition is much higher.

Yeh and they all suck. Name one decent C++ development IDE for linux.
Especially one that has a forms designer and db access out of the box?
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

Quote
1. Ideologically antagonistic product for Linux with closed sources.
Especially with packages and dbExpress drivers.
Agreed completely. the should open source dbExpress. This is one
sticking point I have with CBuilderX. The other problem with closed
source apps is that Borland doesnt keep up with rpms for the latest
distro's. This aint windows, we dont have to wait till 2007 for our
next release :)
Quote
2. Compiler not available on other platforms (UNIX'es).
Honestly, i dont care if the IDE is necessarily hosted on every
platform I target as long as I can comiple with make.
Quote
3. Insufficient quality of product with absence of updates.
Yep. if im paying $1,000 for something it better dam well get
updated.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

Quote
Those incorrectly denigrating Java seem to think that because C# is ECMA,
that MS has given up all rights to C# and that the NET framework is also
ECMA. Nothing could be further from the truth.

MS hasnt given up the rights to it but as I understand it, now that
its a standard they cannot go after someone who clean rooms a C#
compiler. This is just what i've read. i could be wring.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

Quote
Enforcing method signature for example. Compile errors if you do not throw
or catch an exception specified by a called method for example. Compile
errors if you happen to forget an '=' as in:

if (x = true) {}

to name a few examples.

Bah. The compilers i use warn me about this type of scenario. A
better example is forgetting a break statement is a switch. Now that
can be a {*word*156}e to find.
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

Quote
What JDK version are you using? This is not true with 1.4.2,

whats not true, the high memory usage or performance problems. it
still seems to use a lot of memory tho it does run fast. The graphics
are noticably slower than win32 apps.
Quote
>Is there a way using the JDK to not JIT code and cut the memory usage
>down?
>
Sure, but you are speaking of major speed impediments.

This is what I dont get. Python is interpreted but its runs really
fast. Its doesnt use a buttload of memory because it doesnt need ot
JIT. Why cant java run respectably without JIT'ing?
 

Re:Re: DElphi/Kylix Vs. Java ??

Quote
Go and ascertain this fact yourself. More specifically, have a look at the
plaf packages and ascertain that key methods are native, then look up the
native code for them. SWT is thinner, therefore faster, but less competent
than Swing.

I'll take your word for it.
I'm not nor will I ever be a java programmer. I'm just giving you my
experiences as an end user of some java apps.
I just dont get what all of the fuss is about. Who cares if something
is write once if it doesnt run well anywhere.