Board index » kylix » Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)


2003-08-11 10:41:37 PM
kylix0
"JQP" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:3f37a651$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM :
Quote
What is an "Open Source" language?
Languages that have their roots as open source projects. Python, Perl,
Ruby.
Quote
In this traditional, C# is as open as
anything else. Java is one of the few attempts to break with this
tradition.
You get the source to a C# compiler? You can rebuild the runtime
libraries?
--
Iman
"If I had to live my life all over again," said Woody Allen, "I'd do it all
exactly the same ?only I wouldn't read Beowulf."
 
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

"Iman L Crawford" <ilcrawford.at.hotmail.dot.com>wrote in message
Quote
You get the source to a C# compiler? You can rebuild the runtime
libraries?
*Compiler* is not the same as *language*. The C# *language* is as open as
anything available.
Since the *language* is open, you can legally write an open source C#
compiler or IDE if you want to. With Java, you need a license from Sun to
do this.
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

Quote
>I have never seen any innovations incoming from open source projects.
IL>Apache, ReiserFS, numerous programming languages.
That is not innovations. That is programs. IIRC, reiserfs - journaling file
system that windows had in the 1996. Apache - web server that implements
certain internet protocols. Programming languages - what they are and what
innovative thing they have?
IL>It seems to me there are no programming language innovations happening
IL>anywhere but open source.
Quote
>Nearly all innovations mostly going from commercial companies or
>scientists that able to put significant time/brain resources on the
>problem solution.
IL>That doesn't preclude them from being open source projects.
Of course. And that doesn't mean that there are significant count of
innovations from OSP relative to commercial and scientific development.
Quote
>BTW, MS customers is most protected from this stupid battle between
>SCO and IBM/Linux community. :-)
IL>No they're not. MS is protected. Read your EULA, MS never protects
IL>the end user.
As long MS is protected against such stupid demands their users also
protected. In fact i don't know such eulas that protects end user.
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

"Ender" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
Quote
That is not innovations. That is programs.
All software is programs?
Quote
IIRC, reiserfs - journaling
file system that windows had in the 1996.
It's a bit more than just journaling. From what I've read he's done some
innovative things to improve speed.
Quote
Apache - web server that
implements certain internet protocols.
And then some. If you just want HTTP implementation you can go with any
number of HTTP implementations.
Quote
Programming languages - what
they are and what innovative thing they have?
Perl and Python are the two that come to mind immediately.
Quote
Of course. And that doesn't mean that there are significant count of
innovations from OSP relative to commercial and scientific
development.
I wouldn't group commercial and scientific. I would compare OS with
commercial.
Quote
As long MS is protected against such stupid demands their users also
protected. In fact i don't know such eulas that protects end user.
Not true. MS will not indemnify the users of its software. They just lost
a case covering aspects of SQLServer and the company winning could go to
the customers of MS and as for licensing fees.
--
Iman
"If I had to live my life all over again," said Woody Allen, "I'd do it all
exactly the same ?only I wouldn't read Beowulf."
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

"Ender" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in
Quote
Specifications of language is open for use. C# is language. Compiler
is not part of language itself. C# is open language.
I know that. Opens source is not open specifications.
--
Iman
"If I had to live my life all over again," said Woody Allen, "I'd do it all
exactly the same ?only I wouldn't read Beowulf."
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

Ender wrote:
Quote
>>I have never seen any innovations incoming from open source projects.

IL>Apache, ReiserFS, numerous programming languages.

That is not innovations. That is programs. IIRC, reiserfs - journaling
file system that windows had in the 1996. Apache - web server that
implements certain internet protocols. Programming languages - what they
are and what innovative thing they have?
What is your point here ? Programs implement innovations. JFS's had been
implemented in Unix well before MS did it.
As for true open source innovations... how about the many DARPA
projects. TCP/IP would be termed open source if it was started today.
You and others seem to forget that all (some ?) projects funded by the
US government had to be released into the public domain.
[....]
Quote
>>BTW, MS customers is most protected from this stupid battle between
>>SCO and IBM/Linux community. :-)

IL>No they're not. MS is protected. Read your EULA, MS never protects
IL>the end user.

As long MS is protected against such stupid demands their users also
protected. In fact i don't know such eulas that protects end user.
You are really talking rubbish here. MS will be hitting the courts again
with regards to patents implmented in their SQL based products. If they
lose people are already speculating about the damage to MS's customers
who will be liable. And no, this is unlikely to hurt MS as they had
already bought the required licences.
B
--
www.mailtrap.org.uk/
www.ibrox.demon.co.uk/
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

Quote
>Specifications of language is open for use. C# is language. Compiler
>is not part of language itself. C# is open language.
IL>I know that. Opens source is not open specifications.
No one said that C# has something "open soursish".
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

Iman L Crawford wrote:
Quote
It's a bit more than just journaling. From what I've read he's done some
innovative things to improve speed.
It uses balanced trees to improve speed, reduce space and file
fragmentation and reduce space lost due to small files lesser then a
block size. Has plans for plugins to do a lot of things regarding file
metada, see www.namesys.com/ for more info.
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

"Iman L Crawford" <ilcrawford.at.hotmail.dot.com>wrote in message
Quote
That is not what open source is.
Exactly!
The point being that the "Open Source" concept may apply to a compiler but
not to the language itself since languages have traditionally been open
except for a few notable exceptions like Java.
So back to my question, what is an "Open Source" language?
Perl was invented by Larry Walls in 1987, inspired by his need to solve
commercial problems.
Python was invented in the early 90's and developed at government research
institutes in both the Netherlands and the US.
Are these "Open Source" languages? How so? Open Source compilers are
available for lots of languages nowadays but that doesn't make the languages
Open Source inventions.
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

Quote
>That is not innovations. That is programs.
IL>All software is programs?
Yes. Or libraries, which are parts of programs. Innovations - new
techniques, methods and ideas. There is nothing innovative to use existing
principles.
Quote
>IIRC, reiserfs - journaling file system that windows had in the 1996.
IL>It's a bit more than just journaling. From what I've read he's done
IL>some innovative things to improve speed.
Innovative = new, not used before by anyone. Something that have idea, not
combination existing techniques. What new things was developed by ReiserFS
creators?
Quote
>Apache - web server that implements certain internet protocols.
IL>And then some. If you just want HTTP implementation you can go with
IL>any number of HTTP implementations.
So, what innovative (read new) things was introduced by Apache in the IT
world?
Quote
>Programming languages - what they are and what innovative thing they
>have?
IL>Perl and Python are the two that come to mind immediately.
Well, don't know actually Python and Perl. What new things bring they that
does not exist in other languages? For me - just another way to express
thoughts of programmer. For me innovative things in languages is something
like - structured exception handling, objects, functions & procedures, event
driven applications and so on.
Quote
>Of course. And that doesn't mean that there are significant count of
>innovations from OSP relative to commercial and scientific
>development.
IL>I wouldn't group commercial and scientific. I would compare OS with
IL>commercial.
I group by resource availability. You have been paid for doing research and
engineering or not. First case is more likely to get some innovations.
Quote
>As long MS is protected against such stupid demands their users also
>protected. In fact i don't know such eulas that protects end user.
IL>Not true. MS will not indemnify the users of its software. They
IL>just lost a case covering aspects of SQLServer and the company
IL>winning could go to the customers of MS and as for licensing fees.
So it's already going to get money from MS customers?
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

"JQP" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in news:3f37cb8b$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM :
Quote
So back to my question, what is an "Open Source" language?
Ok, if we're going to be pedantic. I'll concede the OS languages, just
compilers and run time libraries.
--
Iman
"If I had to live my life all over again," said Woody Allen, "I'd do it all
exactly the same ?only I wouldn't read Beowulf."
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

Ender wrote:
Quote
>>I was thinking everything done by Open Source <VBG>.

RZ>Well, I have never read about any open source project proclaiming it
RZ>"innovates".

I have never seen any innovations incoming from open source projects. Nearly
all innovations mostly going from commercial companies or scientists that
able to put significant time/brain resources on the problem solution.

Please, use the right word: MONEY.
Commercial companies can hire/buy scientists (ehi, you don't think MS
employees are "scientst", don't you? <g>) using money.
The more money they have, the more innovative they can be.
Microsoft surely has a lot of money, but evidently they are not used the
right way.
Anyway, I think this is OT in this thread.
Quote
RZ>[...]
RZ>I just sit down and wait, thinking how funny it is that two formerly
RZ>"friends" (for economical reasons) now are one against the other in
RZ>this subtle battle. After all humans are humans, even if they group
RZ>up and name themselves IBM and Microsoft, and money is money (in
RZ>our western social model).

BTW, MS customers is most protected from this stupid battle between SCO and
IBM/Linux community. :-)

Be serious, who do you think there is under SCO?
--
Roal Zanazzi
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

Ender wrote:
Quote
>>IIRC, reiserfs - journaling file system that windows had in the 1996.

IL>It's a bit more than just journaling. From what I've read he's done
IL>some innovative things to improve speed.

Innovative = new, not used before by anyone. Something that have idea, not
combination existing techniques. What new things was developed by ReiserFS
creators?

That's not what is commonly referred to as "innovation".
I just grabbed and parsed a couple of dictionaries I have at home, and
both say that innovation is either the introduction of something new, or
a rielaboration in a new fashion of something already existing (or a mix
of the two).
If we keep your definition (which is formally correct, BTW), we should
agree that there was little or no innovation in the last 50 years.
But that's a bit sterile, and I don't like the idea that so much work on
researching and enginnering new, better ways to do the same things is
just a waste of time :-)
Quote
>>Apache - web server that implements certain internet protocols.

IL>And then some. If you just want HTTP implementation you can go with
IL>any number of HTTP implementations.

So, what innovative (read new) things was introduced by Apache in the IT
world?

Apache was born as a series of patches (from that the name) on the NCSA
http daemon. But it was completely reengineered and introduced new ideas
and a highly modularized architecture. That's a new, very different way
of doing the same thing. That's innovation IMHO.
Quote
>>Of course. And that doesn't mean that there are significant count of
>>innovations from OSP relative to commercial and scientific
>>development.

IL>I wouldn't group commercial and scientific. I would compare OS with
IL>commercial.

I group by resource availability. You have been paid for doing research and
engineering or not. First case is more likely to get some innovations.

Money... again...
It seems the only things that keep the world running is money.
Many of the past innovations/inventions were not achieved because of
paid research and engineering. They eventually became commercial things
after, but did not started as such.
Quote
>>As long MS is protected against such stupid demands their users also
>>protected. In fact i don't know such eulas that protects end user.

IL>Not true. MS will not indemnify the users of its software. They
IL>just lost a case covering aspects of SQLServer and the company
IL>winning could go to the customers of MS and as for licensing fees.

So it's already going to get money from MS customers?

Don't worry, Microsoft will counter-sue them till they close <g>
--
Roal Zanazzi
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

"Roal Zanazzi" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
Quote
Interesting affermation.
Can you elaborate some more, if I'm not asking too much of your time?
If you're looking for fresh political and social ideas involving communities
and communal property, you'll probably need to go back to around 1848.
 

Re:Re: IBM strikes back .. SCO in a canopy.. ;-)

JQP wrote:
Quote
"Roal Zanazzi" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote in message
news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...

>Interesting affermation.
>Can you elaborate some more, if I'm not asking too much of your time?


If you're looking for fresh political and social ideas involving communities
and communal property, you'll probably need to go back to around 1848.

Your point is not clear to me.
No, I don't think there is a defined _political_ idea involved in the
open source movement, though some of this ideas are similar or equal to
the ones you cited (the realizations of which, IMHO, have all failed to
reach those ideals, but this is another topic ;-).
At least, it's very unlikely that so many persons around the world,
coming from so much different social cultures, all agree on those
polical ideas.
I was mainly referring to the social involvement in a so global,
world-wide environment.
The novelty (if you don't want to call it "innovation") I see in the
open-source movement is this global effort to construct something beyond
social, cultural, political and religious differences.
Of course, this novelty could not have taken place without the
possibilities of world-wide communication given by computer science and
internet, and it's natural that this effort concretize itself in the
world of computer science (mainly software development).
In a few world, a production model which involves a different scale (and
different solutions) than before.
Maybe this is not innovation, maybe it is. Future will tell us, if we
will live enough...
--
Roal Zanazzi