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IDE source code as open-source?

Hello, World!

Since Borland does not more care about their customers (IDE patch!!!),
we should now help us ourselfs.
Hey Borland, what about open-sourcing this buggy IDE?
I'm sure, i would find these paining IDE memory leaks.

How do you think about that?

Greetings,
Ekki

 

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


Quote
Ekkehard Hess wrote:

> Hello, World!

> Since Borland does not more care about their customers (IDE patch!!!),
> we should now help us ourselfs.

Since I know many on the R&D and support staff as well as most of the management
around the RAD tools I know this statement is incorrect.  They do care.

Quote
> Hey Borland, what about open-sourcing this buggy IDE?
> I'm sure, i would find these paining IDE memory leaks.

> How do you think about that?

Will never happen.

Quote
> Greetings,
> Ekki

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)   | Talk about failure
(Please do not email    | To fall is not to fail
 me directly unless     | Failure isn't about falling down
 asked.  Thank You)     | Failure is staying down (Marillion)

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


 If they care then why aren't they accessible in some way to listen?  What
goo is a product that has no support.  My customers wouldn't stand for it!
They'd find someone else.

I've posted at least two message about printing problems and seen many
others.  The only person remotely from Borland is a former employee that
sells a FIX for your buggy product.

Thanks,

Dan Greer
dangr...@pmicp.com

"Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <overc...@onramp.net> wrote in message
news:3A772FD9.B3678EB7@onramp.net...

Quote

> Ekkehard Hess wrote:

> > Hello, World!

> > Since Borland does not more care about their customers (IDE patch!!!),
> > we should now help us ourselfs.

> Since I know many on the R&D and support staff as well as most of the
management
> around the RAD tools I know this statement is incorrect.  They do care.

> > Hey Borland, what about open-sourcing this buggy IDE?
> > I'm sure, i would find these paining IDE memory leaks.

> > How do you think about that?

> Will never happen.

> > Greetings,
> > Ekki

> --
> Jeff Overcash (TeamB)   | Talk about failure
> (Please do not email    | To fall is not to fail
>  me directly unless     | Failure isn't about falling down
>  asked.  Thank You)     | Failure is staying down (Marillion)

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


Quote
Dan Greer wrote:

>  If they care then why aren't they accessible in some way to listen?  What
> goo is a product that has no support.  My customers wouldn't stand for it!
> They'd find someone else.

These are peer support groups, but both JT (the new BCB product manager) and
Thomas have both been on these newsgroups listening and talking to users.
Obviously you have missed this, but they are here even though these newsgroups
are not intended to be used for this purpose.

Quote
> I've posted at least two message about printing problems and seen many
> others.  

These are and always have been peer support groups.  If you are looking for
Borland technical support you call them up and pay for it.

Quote
> The only person remotely from Borland is a former employee that
> sells a FIX for your buggy product.

I do not work for Borland.

Quote
> Thanks,

> Dan Greer
> dangr...@pmicp.com

--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)   | Talk about failure
(Please do not email    | To fall is not to fail
 me directly unless     | Failure isn't about falling down
 asked.  Thank You)     | Failure is staying down (Marillion)

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


I'm not looking to start an argument, but...

Quote
> >  If they care then why aren't they accessible in some way to listen?
What
> > goo is a product that has no support.  My customers wouldn't stand for
it!
> > They'd find someone else.

> These are peer support groups, but both JT (the new BCB product manager)
and
> Thomas have both been on these newsgroups listening and talking to users.

I think the point was that Borland is failing to support their products.
Having to pay for support is BS. I've been in the groups quite a bit and I
have yet to see a message from someone at Borland. I'm sure they're here,
but it can't be all that much. And what difference does it make anyway? We
don't need their help here. We need them to fix the bugs in their product!

Quote
> These are and always have been peer support groups.  If you are looking
for
> Borland technical support you call them up and pay for it.

Again, to pay for the ability to tell someone about how their product is
broken is ludicrous. What do you think would have transpired if Firestone
stopped accepting reports of tire failures except from customers who agreed
to pay extra for this privilege, and then refused to replace the defective
tires and instead told customers they had to wait a year or more and then
buy the new tires at the regular (or even an upgrade) price?

Don't get me wrong -- I still think Builder is an excellent product and I
think the newsgroups are a tremendous help for support. My gripe is with
Borland's lack of communication regarding basic flaws in their products and
their unwillingness to provide timely updates. If I had a boss there's no
way in hell I'd put my reputation on the line and recommend Borland, even
though I'd much prefer to work with their tools. That's pretty freakin' sad
if you ask me!!

    - Bill
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Zitomer
R.I. Soft Systems - http://www.risoftsystems.com
ScreenSaver.com - http://www.screensaver.com
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"Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <overc...@onramp.net> wrote in message
news:3A773CB6.CC2C1BAE@onramp.net...

Quote

> Dan Greer wrote:

> >  If they care then why aren't they accessible in some way to listen?
What
> > goo is a product that has no support.  My customers wouldn't stand for
it!
> > They'd find someone else.

> These are peer support groups, but both JT (the new BCB product manager)
and
> Thomas have both been on these newsgroups listening and talking to users.
> Obviously you have missed this, but they are here even though these
newsgroups
> are not intended to be used for this purpose.

> > I've posted at least two message about printing problems and seen many
> > others.

> These are and always have been peer support groups.  If you are looking
for
> Borland technical support you call them up and pay for it.

> > The only person remotely from Borland is a former employee that
> > sells a FIX for your buggy product.

> I do not work for Borland.

> > Thanks,

> > Dan Greer
> > dangr...@pmicp.com

> --
> Jeff Overcash (TeamB)   | Talk about failure
> (Please do not email    | To fall is not to fail
>  me directly unless     | Failure isn't about falling down
>  asked.  Thank You)     | Failure is staying down (Marillion)

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


Quote
> Don't get me wrong -- I still think Builder is an excellent product and I
> think the newsgroups are a tremendous help for support. My gripe is with
> Borland's lack of communication regarding basic flaws in their products
and
> their unwillingness to provide timely updates. If I had a boss there's no
> way in hell I'd put my reputation on the line and recommend Borland, even
> though I'd much prefer to work with their tools. That's pretty freakin'
sad
> if you ask me!!

I think that Borland doesnt realise how much its succes relies on peoples
who push it HARD against ms.
Or I think where a lot and in fact Im the only idiot who convinces
management to go with Borland.
Well WAs a idiot....

--
Iznogood
Je veut etre califfe a la place du califfe
Je veut etre califfe a la place du califfe

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


I'm relatively new to cpp builder having been a long time vc++ developer.
I'm not telling you guys anything when I say I'm convinced that this is the
way development should be. Its very unfortunate that the borland people
arent more responsive to their customers complaints. At this point I can't
recommend to management that we use borland tools for anything serious
because of the lack of support. A shame really, nice product otherwise.

Walt

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


Walt schrieb:

Quote

> I'm relatively new to cpp builder having been a long time vc++ developer.
> I'm not telling you guys anything when I say I'm convinced that this is the
> way development should be. Its very unfortunate that the borland people
> arent more responsive to their customers complaints.

I don't know to how much customers you sell your product, and how
large your staff is (and i don't know these numbers for Borland), but
from own experience i think with a historically grown & continiusly
expanded product you need at least something like one developer  per
10-100 customers to guarantee all bugs and minor feature requests
implemented in a single month. Numbers may differ by product and
code quality, but i still think "fast bugfixing" is not an option
given staff size & customer number.
BTW. it seems that all other companies charge you for service, too.

--
                                              Andreas
If the whole world is a stage, where does the
audience sit?

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


Hi:

Quote
> I don't know to how much customers you sell your product, and how
> large your staff is (and i don't know these numbers for Borland), but
> from own experience i think with a historically grown & continiusly
> expanded product you need at least something like one developer  per
> 10-100 customers to guarantee all bugs and minor feature requests
> implemented in a single month. Numbers may differ by product and
> code quality, but i still think "fast bugfixing" is not an option
> given staff size & customer number.
> BTW. it seems that all other companies charge you for service, too.

  How could this possibly work:

  Product $250.00-$500.00

  10 customers $2,500-$5,000.00

 100 customers $25,000-$50,000.00

 How could this support developers at these ratios?

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


Quote
Andreas Koch <ak...@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote in message

news:3A7841B3.4E26D0C9@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de...

Quote

> Walt schrieb:

> > I'm relatively new to cpp builder having been a long time vc++
developer.
> > I'm not telling you guys anything when I say I'm convinced that this is
the
> > way development should be. Its very unfortunate that the borland people
> > arent more responsive to their customers complaints.

> I don't know to how much customers you sell your product, and how
> large your staff is (and i don't know these numbers for Borland), but
> from own experience i think with a historically grown & continiusly
> expanded product you need at least something like one developer  per
> 10-100 customers to guarantee all bugs and minor feature requests
> implemented in a single month. Numbers may differ by product and
> code quality, but i still think "fast bugfixing" is not an option
> given staff size & customer number.
> BTW. it seems that all other companies charge you for service, too.

Not true. TurboPower to name just one has a great support.
And they HAVE a lot of custommers.

--
Iznogood
Je veut etre califfe a la place du califfe
Je veut etre califfe a la place du califfe

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


Quote
> expanded product you need at least something like one developer  per
> 10-100 customers to guarantee all bugs and minor feature requests
> implemented in a single month. Numbers may differ by product and

?? With benefits, a developer probably costs over $100K. $500 product x 100
customers = $50,000. If your theory were true, it would certainly explain
the state of affairs at Borland and perhaps some other SW companies. <g>

Also, as the number of customers increases, the likelihood of repeating bugs
and requests also increases. That would imply that at some point, say 500 or
1000 customers, you would no longer need to add any additional developers
(although you might need to add a marketing exec to figure out how to keep
sales up whilst not answering customer complaints about product defects).

Quote
> BTW. it seems that all other companies charge you for service, too.

True, but I'll still argue the difference between support and warranty.
There's nothing wrong with paying extra for what amounts to training, and it
would be wrong to build that expense into the cost of the product because
not everyone needs the same amount. But there is something wrong with
failing to respond to reports of basic defects in the product, and "service"
of this sort cannot in any justifiable way be charged for. Granted, Borland
is (allegedly) creating a new and improved bug reporting system, but they
didn't really respond to the old one, and now they've taken it down
altogether for months, and not even a guesstimate on when the new one will
be up. But besides that, the message they're sending is that there won't be
anymore bug fixes and we'll all just have to wait another year (or more) and
then pay for the next version (which will undoubtedly have a new set of
bugs). I can't think of any other companies that do that, and the only one I
know of with kahunas that big is Microsoft, and they've got a helluva lot
more updates and shorter product cycles!

    - Bill

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Zitomer
R.I. Soft Systems - http://www.risoftsystems.com
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Quote
"Andreas Koch" <ak...@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote in message

news:3A7841B3.4E26D0C9@rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de...
Quote

> Walt schrieb:

> > I'm relatively new to cpp builder having been a long time vc++
developer.
> > I'm not telling you guys anything when I say I'm convinced that this is
the
> > way development should be. Its very unfortunate that the borland people
> > arent more responsive to their customers complaints.

> I don't know to how much customers you sell your product, and how
> large your staff is (and i don't know these numbers for Borland), but
> from own experience i think with a historically grown & continiusly
> expanded product you need at least something like one developer  per
> 10-100 customers to guarantee all bugs and minor feature requests
> implemented in a single month. Numbers may differ by product and
> code quality, but i still think "fast bugfixing" is not an option
> given staff size & customer number.
> BTW. it seems that all other companies charge you for service, too.

> --
>                                               Andreas
> If the whole world is a stage, where does the
> audience sit?

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


What was Borland's mission statement with BCB V5.0?

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


Quote
> What was Borland's mission statement with BCB V5.0?

Don't know, how is that relevant? (unless, of course, their mission was to
release a buggy product and not fix it)

    - Bill

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Zitomer
R.I. Soft Systems - http://www.risoftsystems.com
ScreenSaver.com - http://www.screensaver.com
Screen Greetings - http://www.screengreetings.com
Virus Myths - http://www.vmyths.com

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


On one of the compilers they stated that they were going to do things right.
They made a bid deal out of this.  Look where we are today!

Well, I thought it was relevant.

Quote
"Bill Zitomer" <bzito...@risoftsystems.com> wrote in message

news:3a788f0c$1_2@dnews...
Quote
> > What was Borland's mission statement with BCB V5.0?

> Don't know, how is that relevant? (unless, of course, their mission was to
> release a buggy product and not fix it)

>     - Bill

> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Zitomer
> R.I. Soft Systems - http://www.risoftsystems.com
> ScreenSaver.com - http://www.screensaver.com
> Screen Greetings - http://www.screengreetings.com
> Virus Myths - http://www.vmyths.com

Re:IDE source code as open-source?


Quote
> On one of the compilers they stated that they were going to do things
right.
> They made a bid deal out of this.  Look where we are today!

Heh, well that's a good mission statement -- "this time we won't{*word*222}up!"
yeah, fills me with confidence. <g>

    - Bill

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Zitomer
R.I. Soft Systems - http://www.risoftsystems.com
ScreenSaver.com - http://www.screensaver.com
Screen Greetings - http://www.screengreetings.com
Virus Myths - http://www.vmyths.com

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