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Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi


2007-02-07 03:29:54 PM
delphi28
Ingvar Nilsen writes:
Quote
Michael Anonymous writes:

>Ingvar Nilsen writes:
>>Herbert Sitz writes:
>>
>>>I agree there was no need for Simon to do any of that. And from
>>>John K.'s explanation it really sounds like Simon just got
>>>impatient. Okay, he's human.
>>But far from professional
>>
>I think Mr. Kissel is the polite and honest type.

I have no reason to believe the opposite.
I said "far from professional"


I notice that comment.
What I am saying was that he WAS being professional:
He was polite up to a certain point until deciding that
being honest was more important.
 
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

I have read it multiple times so I knew it.
Simon seems to be good at stating inaccurate facts.
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

"Nathaniel L. Walker" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
Lazarus may be great for the GUI work that needs to be
done by FPC/LCL developers - but for people who work
at the code level most of the time there needs to be something
more productive. it is like comparing BDS to Visual Studio
for C++. BDS rocks at GUI design but VS is a better
development tool for those who write more code.
This is where the text mode IDE rocks, which is what I use for
all all my compiler development work. There are multiple IDE's
available for FPC, Lazarus is just one of them.
DaniŽl Mantione
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

Quote
This is where the text mode IDE rocks, which is what I use for
all all my compiler development work. There are multiple IDE's
available for FPC, Lazarus is just one of them.
This should be a PR job for FPC community. Most of new people to FPC or Lazarus usually know Lazarus or FPC alone. They don't know that they're actually different products which complement to each other but don't have to be used altogether. FPC is the compiler (with text mode IDE as the default) and Lazarus is the most well-known GUI IDE for FPC since it quite similar to Delphi. But still, unlike Delphi, they are separate products. FPC can also be used with KDevelop, MSEGUI (mypage.bluewin.ch/msegui), FPS (ims.mii.lt/fps/en/about/index.html), you can even use PSPad (www.pspad.com/en), and more others.
-Bee-
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

Quote
Lazarus is a very nice project but it is not ready to build
serious business software with it.
Please separate Lazarus from FPC. I agree that for some points Lazarus (the IDE) does not mature enough compare to Delphi. But that is not the case with FPC (the compiler). I believe it competes well with Delphi compiler, even with GCC.
Quote
A RAD ide would be fun on Linux or the Mac but it is not
necessarily. A cross platform compiler will do the job.
Why didn't you consider to write the program on Delphi and cross compile it using FPC? that is what I have and will be done until Lazarus is mature enough. I have saved lots of work by still using Delphi and FPC since I don't need to rewrite the whole program from the scratch (and retesting it again). I got the best thing from both, Delphi (for the nice IDE) and FPC (for the multiplatform support).
Quote
The next 6 months we will watch CodeGears
actions/visions/plans. After that we switch to c++. By then
we lost our favourite RAD tool Delphi but we get multi
platform in return and with c++ we are not so dependable on
a developer tool vendor.
Thanks God, I have made a right decision. I got multiplatform without loosing the best RAD tool for pascal which is Delphi. :)
-Bee-
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

On 7 Feb 2007 02:14:51 -0800, "bee" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
writes:
Quote
>A RAD ide would be fun on Linux or the Mac but it is not
>necessarily. A cross platform compiler will do the job.

Why didn't you consider to write the program on Delphi and cross compile it using FPC? that is what I have and will be done until Lazarus is mature enough. I have saved lots of work by still using Delphi and FPC since I don't need to rewrite the whole program from the scratch (and retesting it again). I got the best thing from both, Delphi (for the nice IDE) and FPC (for the multiplatform support).
I haven't tested FPC apart from Lazarus.
I will give your idea a try :) It may work.
Quote

>The next 6 months we will watch CodeGears
>actions/visions/plans. After that we switch to c++. By then
>we lost our favourite RAD tool Delphi but we get multi
>platform in return and with c++ we are not so dependable on
>a developer tool vendor.

Thanks God, I have made a right decision. I got multiplatform without loosing the best RAD tool for pascal which is Delphi. :)
I hope you have. We have given our selfs 6 months to make our
decision. This isn't a "in one week" decision thing.
--
Erwin van den Bosch
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

Delphi failed on Linux and will fail again.
C++ Builder could have worked on Linux. C++ Builder problem was that
the VCL is entirely written in Pascal.
--
Michael
----
michael.moreno.free.fr/
port.cogolin.free.fr/
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

Hi,
Quote
Delphi failed on Linux and will fail again.
Tell that to all the large organizations and companies running Delphi code
on Linux. ;)
It may be that Kylix 'failed' commercially, but that has nothing to do with
the need for Windows developers to be able to port their server applications
to Linux as an option. You'd be surprised how many places Delphi server
applications actually run on Linux, due to the old 'failed' Kylix.
Its important to understand _why_ Kylix didnt become the long term
commercial success.
I believe that it was marketed to the wrong people:
- native Linux developers... who generally choose open source development
tools and typically C/C++.
- End user application developers... there were a (justified I'd say)
trust in that the general desktop market on Linux was gonna grow rapidly,
hence requiring end user applications for Linux in large numbers. It is
growing, but just not as rapidly as originally thought.
Yet a reason for its lack of success is that Borland quite fast decided to
put its development on hold. Kylix 3 was and is still a very well working
development tool for Linux, but it has for a long time been a dangerous
decision to make to use it for critical applications, due to Borlands lack
of commitment to it after K3.
But it has until recently been the only choise to move the codebase to
Linux, which is why quite a large number of those Kylix CD's that were
distributed with Delphi 7 is in use today for porting server applications from
windows to Linux.
Quote
C++ Builder could have worked on Linux. C++ Builder problem was that the
VCL is entirely written in Pascal.
I agree that C++ users absolutely would have preferred a native C++ VCL,
rather than a Delphi based one. However if they would have chosen to
recreate the VCL in C++ for C++Builder, then C++Builder users would not have
gotten access to a large number of 3rdparty components, simply because they
are written in Delphi, and most of them would probably not be rewritten to
C++ due to the amount of work needed to keep two codelines in sync.
The integration between C++Builder and Delphi works imo quite ok. There are
a couple of tweeks that should be made to make the integration perfect and
completely seemless, but that would require extending the C++ language
itself with virtual class methods etc. which would not adhere to the Ansi
standard.
Linux support should be marketed towards existing Delphi for Windows users
as an option. It will not sell more Kylix (or whatever the name would be)
licenses, but it would keep the current userbase of Delphi stable, and
probably even give it a boost, as this option is one that can be marketed
agressively in adverticements etc. Its would be a key differenciator why to
use Delphi instead of VS.
Just my thoughts.
--
best regards
Kim Madsen
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
www.components4developers.com
The best components for the best developers
Application server enabling technology for developers
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

John,
Quote
>at least I mailed it to directly to him on
>Jan 9th.

And it was caught in his spam filter. He never saw it until last
Friday, after I brought it up to him at lunch. Are you reading the
messages I have posted here, in the private newsgroup, and in email to
you?
Yes. I must have missed it between all the flames I have got from you
guys. Maybe my attention dropped after some of the insults.
It doesn't change anything to the better though - YOU got it on
the 9th, Anders got it on the 9th, and possibly some of the other
CodeGear guys I mailed it to might have gotten in, so someone could
have forwarded it to Michael Swindell or to anyone else who might
have missed it. All of this talk is just cheap distraction from
the content of the proposal.
But I am not really willing to discuss this any longer. Your hostility
is getting on my nerves. I am sick of every sentence of mine getting
analyized for any possible error, I am sick of you never talking about
the content of my proposals or statements, but always moving onto
meta-levels, I am sick of your TeamB cancelling my messages if I try
to defend myself against the attacks here.
I suggest the next time you need help on something, you ask Peter or
Dan to do it. Obviously you seem to value people not moving a single
finger for Delphi but attacking others who invest their time and
passion into it more.
With the attitude CodeGear is showing here, you just don't deserve
getting helped.
Bye, EOD.
Simon
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

Quote
I haven't tested FPC apart from Lazarus.
I will give your idea a try :) It may work.
Good luck! FYI, it DOES work, because I have done it. But, don't expect it'll totally 100% smooth work, especially when you got lots of windows dependen code. But it is not about pascal issue, it is about multiplatform issue. :)
Quote
I hope you have. We have given our selfs 6 months to make our
decision. This isn't a "in one week" decision thing.
I believe I have. It wasn't an easy decision, I know. I even gave PHP and Java a try too. It took me (and my team) 1 month just to consider this. But then since most of our code (about 90%) is written using (object) pascal, we believe it should be easier if we use FPC rather than we rewrite them all from scratch again. :)
-Bee-
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

I.P. Nichols writes:
Quote
So true! And in poisonous finger-pointing personality battles like this
one there are no winners only bitter feelings and unintended
consequences. In the end will CodeGear have gain anything other than
perhaps some individual face-saving at the cost of further polarization
of their customer base, I think not.
"While you're saving your face, you're losing your ass." - LBJ
Or: "you can not save your ass and your face at the same time." Right
now, it is much more important for CodeGear to save their ass.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

Quote
You'd be surprised how many places Delphi server
applications actually run on Linux, due to the old
'failed' Kylix.
Why Delphi developers keep thinking that Pascal isn't multiplatform? Open your mind, get informations, go googling! If Delphi as the biggest pascal compiler doesn't go multiplatform, it doesn't mean that pascal isn't multiplatform. Pascal is not always to be Delphi. If Delphi or Kylix is dead, that doesn't mean Pascal is dead with it. Especially these days when FPC is mature enough to compile Delphi codes, especially non GUI things.
That's why I agree with Simon's proposal. If CodeGear would focus their bussiness to the IDE and support other pascal compilers, CG could take benefits from other pascal compilers, including the multiplatform support.
Have you heard about Morfik(.com)? It does exactly like that. The Morfik codes can be compiled by Delphi, FPC, and VirtualPascal. It also can cross compile to other supported platform of selected compiler, though the IDE itself is a windows only application. And the great thing is, some part of Morfik IDE is written using Delphi.
-Bee-
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

I've just found an astonishing graphics application that is written (I
believe) in FreePascal with the SDL libraries. It looks like it could
replace Photoshop for most people, yet will run on Windows, OSX, Linux,
BeOS, QNX, FreeBSD, DOS, and several other operating systems.
And it was written by one guy!
While in beta, a single license (one user, as many machines as you want)
is $38.
Check it out! www.kanzelsberger.com/pixel/
Graham
bee writes:
Quote
Why Delphi developers keep thinking that Pascal isn't multiplatform? Open your mind, get informations, go googling! If Delphi as the biggest pascal compiler doesn't go multiplatform, it doesn't mean that pascal isn't multiplatform. Pascal is not always to be Delphi. If Delphi or Kylix is dead, that doesn't mean Pascal is dead with it. Especially these days when FPC is mature enough to compile Delphi codes, especially non GUI things.

That's why I agree with Simon's proposal. If CodeGear would focus their bussiness to the IDE and support other pascal compilers, CG could take benefits from other pascal compilers, including the multiplatform support.

Have you heard about Morfik(.com)? It does exactly like that. The Morfik codes can be compiled by Delphi, FPC, and VirtualPascal. It also can cross compile to other supported platform of selected compiler, though the IDE itself is a windows only application. And the great thing is, some part of Morfik IDE is written using Delphi.

-Bee-

 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

"Brian Moelk" writes:
Quote
I.P. Nichols writes:
>So true! And in poisonous finger-pointing personality battles like this
>one there are no winners only bitter feelings and unintended
>consequences. In the end will CodeGear have gain anything other than
>perhaps some individual face-saving at the cost of further polarization
>of their customer base, I think not.

"While you're saving your face, you're losing your ass." - LBJ
I like that. If nothing else LBJ's quips were colorful but with this one he
also makes an excellent point worth remembering.
Quote
Or: "you can not save your ass and your face at the same time."
Unless you happen to be a four hand monkey that can cover em both. ;-)
Quote
Right now, it is much more important for CodeGear to save their ass.
Agreed...
 

Re: A cross-platform vision for Delphi

Ingvar Nilsen writes:
Quote
I have no reason to believe the opposite.
I said "far from professional"
Ingvar, do you mind cannot be professional and honest at the same time?
:P
--
Donald.