Board index » delphi » Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?


2004-10-22 07:09:29 PM
delphi13
Quote
My 10 years old 66Mhz DX too, but the BIOS battery has said good bye, so
I have to set up the bios again...
66 MHz was released yesterday compared to the Sanyo,
a whoopin' 20 years ago (damn, doesn't make me feel younger...)
www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n9/12_Sanyo_555_small_business.php
"In summary, the MBC-550 is a very powerful computer for the money.
In this regard, nothing else comes close"
^_^
Quote
Think about that, the built in graphics card did not support
StretchBlt()! So I wrote an assembler routine that did it... :)
640x200 in 8 colors - well, actually I only ever saw the 8 shades
of green :)
Eric
 
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

"Ingvar Nilsen" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
[..]
Quote
If you had an orchestra and were to hire a violinist.
What would you do, look at the resume or ask that person to play for you?
I'd look at his resume while he's playing for me <G>
Still, I don't think I'd care if he attended a school for that and if he
has a title, in the event I liked the way he played.
Resume <>degree.
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Ingvar Nilsen writes:
Quote
My 10 years old 66Mhz DX too, but the BIOS battery has said good bye,
so I have to set up the bios again...
When I have time to do that, I can imagine it is going to be like a
time travel, haven't started that machine in 7 years...!
Last week I resurrected my old Apple II. My doughter is 5 now and my
sun is three. They constantly wnat to type on my keyboard, so I thought
I give them something to play with.
Even though parts started to show some rust it started ok and works
perfectly (didn't bother to connect the floppy drives though).
It was like a time warp. Seeing Apple][ on the screen and the fabulous
Quote
prompt that brings you direct to the Basic interpreter.
10 PRINT "SVENJA IS NICE"
20 GOT 10
RUN
SVENJA IS NICE
SVENJA IS NICE
SVENJA IS NICE
SVENJA IS NICE
SVENJA IS NICE
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Alessandro Federici writes:
Quote
I'd look at his resume while he's playing for me <G>
Still, I don't think I'd care if he attended a school for that
and if he has a title, in the event I liked the way he played.
Resume <>degree.
Very true, however to get to the point where they actually read your
resume for IT stuff or look at your work . . . The last time I was
looking for work, I only had a one or two years of experience
programming, so it wasn't that impressive with the background of no
college. Plus, the "requirement" of having a degree intimidated me to
not even apply for the positions.
Now, after 10 years at the same company and working on a variety of
things like right-sizing and leading the development team, it looks
much better than it did back then. (or would if I updated it!) <g>
--
Phyllis
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

"Alessandro Federici" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

Nothing of what I know about IT/software/hardware etc was learnt at
school.
In high school I was attending a "Liceo scientifico" (=high school with
many
topics such as math, Italian and English licterature , physics, latin, etc
but no IT related ones). In college I was studying philosophy.
Most of the best programmers I have met don't have a college degree in
software engineering (if any at all).

All of the best programmers that I have met have computer science (CS) or
computer engineering (CE) degrees. The false belief that education does
not count comes from people that have never worked with top-tier computer
scientists/engineers. Such people perform the bulk of the cutting-edge
work. As a degreed computer scientist, I have had the great fortune to
have worked in such shops, and I can tell you that the companies that
require a degree have incredibly talented personnel. These companies tend
to recruit the best of the best (which makes me wonder how I ever got hired
<vbg>). A CS/CE degree does matter when one is pushing the outside of the
technical envelope.
With the above said, most software development is technical grunt work where
only basic coding skills are necessary, especially the work found in
in-house shops (in such shops, the bulk of one’s expertise usually lies in a
problem domain). To prefer a candidate with no-experience and a CS/CE
degree to an experienced person with no degree is quite stupid. However,
when given two candidates with equal experience and temperament, the
CS/CE-degreed candidate will always get the nod because their fundamentals
will allow them to transition to new technologies much easier.
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Mark Van Ditta writes:
Quote
expertise usually lies in a problem domain). To prefer a candidate
with no-experience and a CS/CE degree to an experienced person with
no degree is quite stupid. However, when given two candidates with
equal experience and temperament, the CS/CE-degreed candidate will
always get the nod because their fundamentals will allow them to
transition to new technologies much easier.
I don't doubt that I could be better at what I do if I had the training
that I'd receive in getting a degree. For someone who is seeking
to continue doing software development, is the CS or the CE degree the
better way to go? And would it be worthwhile going the route of one of
the places that offers online or remote degrees, or should I start the
process at my local university?
--
Phyllis
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Ingvar Nilsen <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
Quote
>But it is a <ahem>full programming language, so you can do all kinds
>of crazy things with it.

So much I have already understood, but when I tried to dive into some
of it 7 years ago, mostly the response was that it practically is
black magic..
If you can program in Forth, Postscript isn't that bad. it is been years
since I have done it, but I used to write custom wrappers in Postscript to
format report data, rather than do it in the PC. It was so much easier, at
the time (15 years ago) to let PostScript do things like word wrap and line
breaks for predefined areas than to do it in code.
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Mark Van Ditta writes:
Quote
However, when given two candidates with equal experience and
temperament, the CS/CE-degreed candidate will always get the nod
because their fundamentals will allow them to transition to new
technologies much easier.
They will usually get the nod, yes, but the latter part is not
necessarily true. I know of CE graduates who practically only learned
Java and would be lost if put to maintain carefully crafted code that
contains pointer variables. An experienced Delphi or C/C++ programmer
will OTOH have less problems reading and writing Java or C# code.
You can never just look at the degree. Classes and grades are more
important.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

"Phyllis Helton" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

I don't doubt that I could be better at what I do if I had the training
that I'd receive in getting a degree. For someone who is seeking
to continue doing software development, is the CS or the CE degree the
better way to go? And would it be worthwhile going the route of one of
the places that offers online or remote degrees, or should I start the
process at my local university?

Sadly, today, most of the computer science (CS) programs that are offered to
continuing education students (i.e., working {*word*62}s that are trying to earn
a degree part-time) are quite watered down compared to what is available to
their day school counterparts. This situation used to not be the case.
For example, most of the upper-level courses offered in the CS program at
the University of Maryland University College (UMUC) used to be taught by
moonlighting professors/post-docs from the College Park campus (the main
UMUC campus is located on the backside of the College Park campus). The
College Park CS program has been one the best in the world for years (e.g.,
Sergey Brin of Google is a UM College Park CS grad); thus, night school
students had access to some of the best researchers in the industry.
However, with the commercialization of UMUC, which seems to have occurred
around 1997, the College Park influence has all but disappeared from the
program.
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

"Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
Mark Van Ditta writes:

>>
They will usually get the nod, yes, but the latter part is not
necessarily true. I know of CE graduates who practically only learned
Java and would be lost if put to maintain carefully crafted code that
contains pointer variables. An experienced Delphi or C/C++ programmer
will OTOH have less problems reading and writing Java or C# code.

You can never just look at the degree. Classes and grades are more
important.

You seemed to have read what you wanted to read, not what I wrote, which
was: "However, when given two candidates with equal experience and
temperament, the CS/CE-degreed candidate will always get the nod because
their fundamentals will allow them to transition to new technologies much
easier." I was not saying that I'd hire a person with only a
CS/CE-degreed over an experienced person with no degree. I said that, with
all other things being equal, the CS/CE degree candidate gets the nod.
IMHO, coding in a specific language is lower-level coursework. No
self-respecting CS program would dare try to push this material off as
upper-level coursework. With most CS/CE-grads, I am assured that they
understand basic discrete mathematics/combinatorics (Boolean algebra,
propositional/predicate calculus, sets, groups, rings, partitions, lattices,
graphs et al.), computer organization (half-adders, full-adders, encoders,
decoders, multiplexers, combinational and sequential logic, register
transfer operations, hardwired/microcoded control units, state transition
diagrams, K-Maps et al.), computer architecture (busses, hierarchical memory
systems, pipelining, caches, I/O subsystems et al.), language theory
(regular expressions, attributed grammars, left and right recursive
grammars, LL and LR parsing, intermediate language production, global and
local optimization techniques et al.), algorithm analysis (such as how to
bound an algorithm with respect to space and time and notate it using Big O
Notation), operating system/parallel programming theory (interprocess
communications, scheduling, memory management, process synchronization, how
to detect and/or avoid cycles in a resource allocation graph, how to avoid
priority inversion et al.). In essence, I am fairly assured that they
understand software and hardware to their basic elements, which removes the
voodoo/sorcery from software engineering.
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Mark Van Ditta writes:
Quote
You seemed to have read what you wanted to read, not what I wrote,
which was: "However, when given two candidates with equal experience
and temperament, the CS/CE-degreed candidate will always get the nod
because their fundamentals will allow them to transition to new
technologies much easier." I was not saying that I'd hire a
person with only a CS/CE-degreed over an experienced person with no
degree. I said that, with all other things being equal, the CS/CE
degree candidate gets the nod.
...and I agreed with you, but then you wrote "because their fundamentals
will allow them to transition to new technologies much easier" and that
was where I disagreed with you.
Quote
IMHO, coding in a specific language is lower-level coursework. No
self-respecting CS program would dare try to push this material off
as upper-level coursework.
That's not the point. My point is that there are people with a degree
that just barely passed the tests and got a degree. These people are
likely to forget everything they just barely learned unless they use
that knowledge in their daily work, and most of stuff you learn earning
a CS/CE degree rarely come to any direct and inescapable use.
I presume you are going to disagree with me, and sure - I personally
even use things I picked up studying mathematics, logic and philosophy
at higher levels, but I aced those classes, and I wouldn't have
remembered any of it had my results been only average and I hadn't
enjoyed studying those subjects. It is the same with everything CS
related I picked up both inside and outside class rooms and seminars.
I could probably comment on each of the classes you exemplified, but I
picked one:
Quote
such as how to bound an algorithm with respect to space and time and
notate it using Big O Notation)
I believe any slightly above average programmer who knows the difference
between addition, multiplication and powers and uses loops, iteration or
recursion in his code, will come to an instrumental understanding of
this concept with or without curricular or extra curricular studies.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

"Henrick Hellström [StreamSec]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message news:4179879d$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote

I believe any slightly above average programmer who knows the difference
between addition, multiplication and powers and uses loops, iteration or
recursion in his code, will come to an instrumental understanding of
this concept with or without curricular or extra curricular studies.


I have met very few non-degreed programmers that understand the difference
in performance between O(n log n) and O(n^2) (I have been in this game for
twenty-five years, so I have had the opportunity to interview hundreds of
candidates). I have met even fewer that could analyze an algorithm and
describe its performance using asymptotic notation, let alone take an O(n^2)
algorithm and convert it to an O(n log n) algorithm. You are giving the
average coder far too much credit. In the U.S., if one can tap out working
code at a low enough price, one is hired. I am not interested in hiring
this type of person.
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Mark Van Ditta writes:
Quote
I have met very few non-degreed programmers that understand the
difference in performance between O(n log n) and O(n^2) (I have been
in this game for twenty-five years, so I have had the opportunity to
interview hundreds of candidates).
Huh? Isn't the difference clear?
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"I'm not going to get into the ring with Tolstoy."
- Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961)
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Phyllis Helton writes:
Quote
Now, after 10 years at the same company and working on a variety of
things like right-sizing and leading the development team, it looks
much better than it did back then. (or would if I updated it!) <g>
My advice: keep it up to date as you go - you never know when you might
next need it. Filling in later means that you can lose useful detail.
--
Mike Orriss
RemObjects Software
www.remobjects.com
 

Re: How Many Delphi Users Did or Did Not Learn Pascal At University?

Mark Van Ditta writes:
Quote
I have met very few non-degreed programmers that understand the
difference in performance between O(n log n) and O(n^2) (I have been
in this game for twenty-five years, so I have had the opportunity to
interview hundreds of candidates). I have met even fewer that could
analyze an algorithm and describe its performance using asymptotic
notation, let alone take an O(n^2) algorithm and convert it to an O(n
log n) algorithm.
I am sure most experienced programmers would recognize QuickSort if they
saw it, but for small n or infrequently called blocks of code, the O(n
log n) algorithm lacks a lot more in readability than it gains in
performance compared to the O(n^2) algorithm. I am in many cases
deliberately using the O(n^2) algorithm for exactly this reason.
Furthermore, I wouldn't expect a non-degree programmer to be able to
know what the heck the O(.) notation is. Term<>Concept. If he hasn't
heard of the term he might still be using some other way of describing
the concept.
--
Henrick Hellström
www.streamsec.com