Board index » delphi » Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET


2004-08-19 07:52:26 PM
delphi256
"Sinan Karaca [MimarSinan]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
<snip>
Quote
I disagree that WinForms is a true .NET experience and VCL.NET is a fake
one. The simplest way to illustrate this: WinForms runs only on Windows.
Why, because it has P/Invoke calls to the Win32 API. How else could M$
offer
a sophisticated UI for the FX in such short time? Of course, keep in mind
that the entire .NET FX itself is implemented on Windows - meaning,
ultimately, that it is not "pure". While I have come across many purists,
especially in the Linux world (they rejected Kylix because it wasn't
"pure"), and I have respect for the religious/fanatic kind of purism, my
priority is on getting the job done in as little time as possible with as
high quality as possible. The quality has very little to do, if at all,
with
the purity factor.
<snip>
Remarks at BorCon 2003 lead me to think that plans are for .net to become
the native access method in the future and Win32 to be the indirect (and
therefore slower) method. Of course, Windows 2000 and XP will not vanish
the day Longhorn is released, so there will be direct Win32 performance on
those machines for many years to come.
Kirk Halgren
"Remember, Time is Money."
-- Benjamin Franklin
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."
-- Mahatma Gandhi
 
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

"Sinan Karaca [MimarSinan]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
I disagree that WinForms is a true .NET experience and VCL.NET is a fake
one. The simplest way to illustrate this: WinForms runs only on Windows.
Why, because it has P/Invoke calls to the Win32 API. How else could M$
offer
a sophisticated UI for the FX in such short time? Of course, keep in mind
that the entire .NET FX itself is implemented on Windows - meaning,
ultimately, that it is not "pure".
So if WinForms is not "pure", how can VCL.NET which sits on WinForms be more
"pure". Unless of course I am mistaken and VCL.NET is a native
implementation altogether.
Quote
I imagine most "dropped" components will make a comeback in the next
Delphi
update.
Lets keep on hoping.
Quote
I am clearly not maintaining a .NET and Win32 version just because I can,
or
because I have too much time on my hands. I am doing it because it serves
my
needs. The point is that I have found a vehicle which serves my needs, and
no other vehicle at this time provides this. M$ doesn't even let you move
to
.NET without rewriting all your software - save having single source
compiles!
You're very lucky to be able to have single source compiles, but your're one
of many. Take the most popular delphi components ie InfoPower,
ReportBuilder, Raize etc . none of these have been ported to .NET.
Quote
The point here is that VCL, and the FX that ships with Delphi in general,
has been ported to more platforms and operating systems than any other FX
to
date. AND, that by all indications, it will continue to be the most widely
tested, widely deployed FX available for a long time to come. AND, that
because it has been through so many transitions and changes (even across
real platform boundaries - Windows and Linux), it is technically very
sound
at this point, otherwise it would not have survived all the transitions.
This ties in with my point below.
Don't forget that VCL was dropped in the C++Builder X and we haven't seen a
new release of Kylix in years. So 10 points for a crossplatform FX, but do
you think this makes the Linux or C++ developers happier?
Quote
One step behind? This is a valid charge. However, can you give me specific
examples of how this has prevented you, in the real world, from achieving
your needs?
Sure you can get around it, but it wasted alot of time researching and
implementing a framework yourself.
On the Win32 platform Take MTS and ADO for example when it came out.
Now on .NET the Compact Framework is not support in Delphi 8, whether
natively or via the VCL.
Quote
Delphi jobs have been shrinking because of M$'s misinformation
propaganda, not because Delphi has suddenly become useless/irrelevant.
Yes its a shame that Anders, Chuck, Blake and others succumed to being
conned by M$'s misinformation.
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

You mean Delphi 1?
"zedd" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>We all know the famous example - open the Delphi 1 fishfacts app, and it
>compiles under D8. Now you have a single source app, compiling on Win16,
>Win32, and .NET. This definitely says something!

That Borland is out of touch with how many of us use Delphi?

Z
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Quote
Remarks at BorCon 2003 lead me to think that plans are for .net to become
the native access method in the future and Win32 to be the indirect (and
therefore slower) method. Of course, Windows 2000 and XP will not vanish
the day Longhorn is released, so there will be direct Win32 performance on
those machines for many years to come.
At present day, this is not the case, so D8's architecture is sound. And I
am eager to find out how the native .NET will be: As you know, WinForms is
being dropped, in favor of the new UI layer, Avalon was it called? WinForms
is probably being dropped because it is Win32 based.
Or, need I say more - WinForms is being dropped. It is the latest and
greatest thing coming from M$ and we know it is obsolete already - M$ gladly
tells us so :) I am therefore betting on VCL. When Longhorn is released, I
know I will have native VCL encapsulating whatever new layers M$ comes up
with.
Borland - thanks again!
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Quote
So if WinForms is not "pure", how can VCL.NET which sits on WinForms be
more
"pure". Unless of course I am mistaken and VCL.NET is a native
implementation altogether.
My point is, both are equally pure. M$ would like you to believe that
WinForms is "pure", when in fact it is no purer than VCL.NET.
Quote
Lets keep on hoping.
You'd be surprised.
Quote
You're very lucky to be able to have single source compiles, but your're
one
of many. Take the most popular delphi components ie InfoPower,
ReportBuilder, Raize etc . none of these have been ported to .NET.
I imagine they'll be following up as demand for .NET increases.
Quote
Don't forget that VCL was dropped in the C++Builder X and we haven't seen
a
new release of Kylix in years. So 10 points for a crossplatform FX, but
do
you think this makes the Linux or C++ developers happier?
CPPBX is based on a totally new framework - I forget what it is called. I
think Borland made the switch to satisfy Linux fanatics who, on grounds of
purity, would not touch Kylix.
Quote
Sure you can get around it, but it wasted alot of time researching and
implementing a framework yourself.
Not any more time you'd waste than with M$. If anything, Borland still saves
you time.
Quote
Now on .NET the Compact Framework is not support in Delphi 8, whether
natively or via the VCL.
I am sure it will be supported in upcoming releases.
Quote
Yes its a shame that Anders, Chuck, Blake and others succumed to being
conned by M$'s misinformation.
I'm not sure if that is as much misinformation as it was money. Don't get me
wrong - if someone at M$ offers me a couple million dollars to abandon
Delphi and switch over, sure I will! I will take the money, hire someone to
code apps in M$ products, then forget all about them and sail out to a
Carribbean Island!
($) ($)
..
\____/
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

"Sinan Karaca [MimarSinan]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
Or, need I say more - WinForms is being dropped. It is the latest and
greatest thing coming from M$ and we know it is obsolete already - M$
gladly
tells us so :) I am therefore betting on VCL. When Longhorn is released, I
know I will have native VCL encapsulating whatever new layers M$ comes up
with.

Borland - thanks again!
At least "M$ gladly tell us so" way in advance so there's no {*word*193} surprise
when it happens and we can prepare ourselves as far as expensive business
decisions are mode. If only Borland could play open cards with its
developers as M$ do. Unfortunately we've been bitten once too many times
with {*word*193} surprises. As already mentioned, how many things were missing
in Delphi 8 when Delphi 7 was launched. Even when Borland tried to be open with an
open letter, they had to retract their statements that Delphi 8 would be
Win32/.NET IDEUp until the beta field test it was all a guessing game as to
what would be in the product. Now, with D9 supposedly coming out in a few
months time, we're still playing a guessing game. I also remember
e{*word*277}dly going to the CBuilder X launch to find that the VCL is not
supported and still didnt/don't know if it will be in future releases.
No wonder managers are buying into the M$ propaganda.
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

"Sinan Karaca [MimarSinan]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message
Quote
Or, need I say more - WinForms is being dropped.
Hi Sinan. Do you have a link to this info, please?
Quote
It is the latest and
greatest thing coming from M$ and we know it is obsolete already - M$
gladly
tells us so :) I am therefore betting on VCL. When Longhorn is released, I
know I will have native VCL encapsulating whatever new layers M$ comes up
with.
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Dennis Landi writes:
Quote
"Sinan Karaca [MimarSinan]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message

>Or, need I say more - WinForms is being dropped.

Hi Sinan. Do you have a link to this info, please?
I guess he refers to that in Avalon/Longhorn, WinForms will be legacy.
You can find some of this discussion here, scroll down a bit on the
page:
"WinForms is dead misconceptions are misplaced"
radio.weblogs.com/0001011/2004/04/03.html
Cheers,
Jarle
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Quote
Roger Weiss in <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:

"Sinan Karaca [MimarSinan]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...

>Or, need I say more - WinForms is being dropped. It is the latest and
>greatest thing coming from M$ and we know it is obsolete already - M$
>gladly
>tells us so :) I am therefore betting on VCL. When Longhorn is released, I
>know I will have native VCL encapsulating whatever new layers M$ comes up
>with.
>
>Borland - thanks again!

At least "M$ gladly tell us so" way in advance so there's no {*word*193} surprise
Yup, MS never has/had any {*word*193} suprises to mess up a company/developers plans.
Umm...
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Roger Weiss writes:
Quote
So if WinForms is not "pure", how can VCL.NET which sits on WinForms
be more "pure". Unless of course I am mistaken and VCL.NET is a
native implementation altogether.
You are mistaken -- VCL.NET is "native" in that it doesn't rely on
Winforms at all -- it is parallel to Winforms, and it is architecture is
identical to Winforms. They both rely heavily on P/Invoke.
--
Nick Hodges -- TeamB
Lemanix Corporation -- www.lemanix.com
Read my Blog -- www.lemanix.com/nick
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Roger Weiss writes:
Quote
So if WinForms is not "pure", how can VCL.NET which sits on WinForms be more
"pure". Unless of course I am mistaken and VCL.NET is a native
implementation altogether.
VCL.NET also makes P/Invoke calls to implement stuff, just like
WinForms. AFAIK, it doesn't sit on top of WinForms. In fact, VCL.NET
doesn't use GDI+ so it has a benefit over WinForms in this sense... GDI+
is known to a real dog performance-wise. I don't have Delphi 8 to
verify this (holding out for Delphi 9) but from what I have read this is
the case.
Cheers,
Kevin.
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Quote
1) Using Delphi.NET, I was able to start coding for the .NET platform
immediately. Without learning a single new thing about .NET. I used
VCL.NET,
of course.

<lot's-o-great-stuff snipped>

What can I say - keep it up guys! We love ya.
Sinan,
This post has probably single-handedly erased many months of all the various
negative and defeatist postings I have seen while trolling through the
newsgroups. This post has begun to make its way through email here at
Borland. I know that you won't be disappointed by the next release of
Delphi.
So do you mind if I blog this? you will certainly get appropriate credit.
--
Allen Bauer
Delphi/C#Builder Principal Architect
Borland Software Corporation.
blogs.borland.com/abauer
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Interesting. Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I saw WinForms as
"Win32", and in the same way VCL was implemented on Win32, VCL.NET "sits on"
WinForms. But what you say makes sense.
"Nick Hodges [TeamB]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Roger Weiss writes:

>So if WinForms is not "pure", how can VCL.NET which sits on WinForms
>be more "pure". Unless of course I am mistaken and VCL.NET is a
>native implementation altogether.

You are mistaken -- VCL.NET is "native" in that it doesn't rely on
Winforms at all -- it is parallel to Winforms, and it is architecture is
identical to Winforms. They both rely heavily on P/Invoke.

--
Nick Hodges -- TeamB
Lemanix Corporation -- www.lemanix.com
Read my Blog -- www.lemanix.com/nick
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

"Sinan Karaca [MimarSinan]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
I disagree that WinForms is a true .NET experience and VCL.NET is a fake
one. The simplest way to illustrate this: WinForms runs only on Windows.
Why, because it has P/Invoke calls to the Win32 API. How else could M$
offer
a sophisticated UI for the FX in such short time? Of course, keep in mind
that the entire .NET FX itself is implemented on Windows - meaning,
ultimately, that it is not "pure".
Absolutely agree about "pure" (whatever that is), but there is an advantage
to using winforms, because it has better 3rd party support in terms of
custom controls. Further, it may not be more "pure" but it is more standard,
so there is more documentation, tips, skills etc available.
I'd add that VCL also has advantages - performance is generally better for a
start.
Tim
Windows culture needs to change
www.itwriting.com/blog/
 

Re: Advantages of Delphi.NET

Roger Weiss writes:
Quote

So if WinForms is not "pure", how can VCL.NET which sits on WinForms
be more "pure". Unless of course I am mistaken and VCL.NET is a
native implementation altogether.
VCL.Net does not sit on top of WinForms, both sit on top of the Windows API.
--
Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com)
RADBooks: www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html
"Democracy, without the guarantee of liberty, is merely a method of
selecting tyrants." - Alan Nitikman