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Re: Q2-call meeting results discussion - some info please? - to John K and DevRel


2004-07-27 01:04:40 AM
delphi79
on what grounds?
"Oliver Townshend" <oliver_at_zip_com_au>writes
Quote
>>I'll come back to this thread a bit later. After mandatory,
>>"Delphi is dead" comments have been posted.
>
>Delphi is dead.
>
>No it is not.
>
>OK, that is been said and rebutted; we can move on to the more
>interesting discussions, now. :)

Shouldn't you have cancelled this post as well?

Oliver Townshend


 
 

Re: Q2-call meeting results discussion - some info please? - to John K and DevRel

Craig Stuntz [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Because licenses *are* the product. There is no charge for StarTeam
server anymore (it was $10000 before Borland bought StarBase --
Borland, in other words, knocked $10000 off the price of a full
StarTeam installation).
Thanks for the explanation. In other words it is like giving away the
bathroom cup dispenser so you you can sell more bathroom cups.
That may be exactly what has happened, but I am afraid I find it hard to
believe. If that is what has happened, it strikes me as a particularly
dumb move. Anyone familiar with setting up a system like this is well
aware that the vast majority of the support requirements will be for the
initial server setup, with very little need for support on additional
clients.
I said I was going to give Borland the benefit of the doubt, so lets
just say they made a dumb move (I understand that is just my opinion) and
that's the way it is.
Now that brings us to quantity discounts. We all know they exist, but
what are they. Apparently there are none that would apply to small shops.
The impression I am still left with is that they will gladly go to
larger customers and work out whatever is a fair deal for that customer.
Little guys can just take it or leave it, they don't have time to be
bothered.
Harry Barclay
 

Re: Q2-call meeting results discussion - some info please? - to John K and DevRel

Harry Barclay writes:
Quote
Thanks for the explanation. In other words it is like giving away the
bathroom cup dispenser so you you can sell more bathroom cups.
I think so.
Quote
That may be exactly what has happened, but I am afraid I find it hard
to believe. If that is what has happened, it strikes me as a
particularly dumb move. Anyone familiar with setting up a system like
this is well aware that the vast majority of the support requirements
will be for the initial server setup, with very little need for
support on additional clients.
This is very true with StarTeam. Note, however, that the (former)
$10000 price for the server from StarBase Corp. got you zero support.
IOW, It may not be as dumb as you think. Not having to spend $10000
on the server install makes you more likely to buy support for the
setup. And support contracts tend to renew.
Yes, you will either want to pay someone to install and configure
StarTeam for you or plan on spending a good deal of time with the
documentation. I did the latter, FWIW, and it is not insurmountable,
but StarTeam is designed to be configured to your way of working, so
the installation doesn't even try to be "one size fits all." You need
to analyze your development process and configure the tool to match.
Someone who knows StarTeam really well can help a lot with this. Or
you can do it yourself if you have a good tolerance for reading
documentation and some time to kill.
Quote
Now that brings us to quantity discounts. We all know they exist, but
what are they. Apparently there are none that would apply to small
shops.
Not true. We negotiated a discount on StarTeam based on the fact that
we resell a lot of InterBase licenses. There is no "menu" of discounts
to choose from -- it is essentially whatever you can negotiate with your
salesperson -- but in general the more Borland products you buy the
cheaper the unit prices are.
Keep in mind, also, that you get a free user license with several
Borland products, and that these licenses are stackable.
Quote
The impression I am still left with is that they will gladly go to
larger customers and work out whatever is a fair deal for that
customer. Little guys can just take it or leave it, they don't have
time to be bothered.
$10000 off the price tag and free user licenses with the IDEs is
hardly in line with this statement, is it? A single developer who buys
D8 gets StarTeam *for free.*
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Useful articles about InterBase development:
blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/category/21.aspx
 

Re: Q2-call meeting results discussion - some info please? - to John K and DevRel

Bob Dawson in <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
I take this to mean (among other things) the level of integration and
breadth of information availability expected of a 'corporate
solution,'
Yes. that is why I specifically called out "technology" rather than
services in my question.
Quote
1. Small shops need hand holding too, but the issue there is often not
handholding in the sense of 'integrated solutions' but in the sense
of white papers, tutorials, and best practices guidance.
Right ... my reference to "broader depth of material"
Quote
2. There's a tendency to make integration technologies available only
in the enterprise level SKUs--I'd like to see that become more of a
scalar value than a boolean--StarTeam, Together integration,
CaliberRM integrated into all Delphi SKUs at least down to
professional, with the difference being capabilities (light/full
versions) rather than presence or absence.
Agreed. They will be, and have been, trickling down to the lower-end
SKUs. I think we'll continue to see all key new features first appear
in the high-end SKUs.
--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, bdn.borland.com
BorCon2004, all info in one place! info.borland.com/conf2004
Features and bugs: qc.borland.com
Get source: cc.borland.com
Unofficial information overload: blogs.borland.com
 

Re: Q2-call meeting results discussion - some info please? - to John K and DevRel

Craig Stuntz [TeamB] writes:
Quote

Yes, you will either want to pay someone to install and configure
StarTeam for you or plan on spending a good deal of time with the
documentation. I did the latter, FWIW, and it is not insurmountable,
I took the same route, and I really did not find it that {*word*156}ce I got
past the digit that Borland left off of the serial number on the
certification card. I am sure someone with experience could show us a lot
about it since we are learning new things every day, but I count that as
part of the fun. Starteam appears to be a great product, and with just
the most basic functionality seems to do everything we really need.
Quote

Keep in mind, also, that you get a free user license with several
Borland products, and that these licenses are stackable.

I don't have a need for any more Borland products right now, so that
option is useless.
Quote
$10000 off the price tag and free user licenses with the IDEs is
hardly in line with this statement, is it? A single developer who buys
D8 gets StarTeam *for free.*

Your idea of "free" is apparently different than mine. Delphi 8 Pro is $999,
to get Starteam requires either buying the Starteam product, or moving
up to Delphi 8 Enterprise at $2500. I decided the Delphi 8 Enterprise route was the
best way to go, but any way you look at it, it is not "free".
That's not a problem, because I don't expect Borland to give me the
product for free. That would play hell with the price of the few shares
of Borland stock that I own. What I'd like is for Borland to show
some options for small shops to take advantage of some of the great
products even though we don't have the resources to buy hundreds or
thousands of licenses.
We are probably going to have to agree to disagree on this point, but my
impression is that Borland is actively marketing to large corporations
(that is a good thing) but not to small shops (not a good thing). If you
want to buy in small quantities they will sell to you, but they are
making no effort to make the products really attractive from a price
standpoint. That may turn out to be the correct strategy in the long
run, but I am afraid they are overlooking a very large segment of the
market that really should not be ignored.
 

Re: Q2-call meeting results discussion - some info please? - to John K and DevRel

Harry Barclay writes:
Quote
Your idea of "free" is apparently different than mine. Delphi 8 Pro is
$999, to get Starteam requires either buying the Starteam product, or
moving up to Delphi 8 Enterprise at $2500. I decided the Delphi 8 Enterprise
route was the best way to go, but any way you look at it, it is not
"free".
Even with Delphi 8 Pro -- which doesn't include the free license -- the cost
of an entry-level StarTeam license is under $1000 -- compare that to a
five figure cost prior to the Borland acquisition and then try to tell
me again that Borland doesn't care about small shops.
StarTeam is principally marketed to big enterprise customers because
it works very well for installations with hundreds of users, and
Borland makes a good deal of money on these sales. But I really can't
think of any other Borland product where the bottom line has been cut
so drastically for the single user as with StarTeam.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Please read and follow Borland's rules for the user of their
news server: info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html
 

Re: Q2-call meeting results discussion - some info please? - to John K and DevRel

Harry Barclay <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
I'm trying to keep an open mind and give Borland the benefit of the
doubt, so if someone can explain to me why Starteam has to charge the
Or why Borland provides no upgrade pricing for ST 4.x licensees, as I
was surprised to learn today...seems to they're being short-sighted in
not trying to encourage old StarBase customers to move up to the Borland
product.