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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?


2006-10-09 02:13:13 PM
delphi267
Nick Hodges (Borland/DTG) writes:
Quote
>Delphi users even if they go pure VCL.NET will still have many
>issues because so much of the VCL and RTL use P/Invoke.

Winforms uses P/Invoke as well.
Yes but WinForms is a trusted assembly by default, and with VCL its not
limited to just VCL forms. It affects pretty much any VCL or RTL units.
If it were isolated into just VCL forms so that app that did not use
forms were P/Invoke free the situation would then be much better.
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Ingvar Nilsen writes:
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Isn't there more than one way "to do .Net"? Another way?
There plenty of ways.
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Quote
So improving it so it isn't is not an option?
It is an option, just one likely to be way beyond DTG's resources.
We're talking of out-investing Microsoft on their own technology.
Quote
That's pretty defeatist.
Even Don Quixote stopped fighting windmills at some point.
Eric
 

Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Eric Grange writes:
Quote
>Winforms uses P/Invoke as well.

But from MS-provided assemblies, which have automagic acceptance.
But to be fair, no one expects Borland to ship PI free VCL forms and
since forms are typically used in client apps it not necessary. Its the
other parts of VCL and especially RTL that need fixing. Most are very
easy to do and the reason it wasnt done was to shortcut porting time,
then it just got "left there".
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Dave Nottage [TeamB] writes:
Quote
>imho you've got to be pretty desperate to want to try and put any
>sort of positive spin for .net on those numbers.

I'm wondering where you were when some were putting a negative spin
on .NET with no numbers at all.
The numbers arent about .NET, they are about Delphi.NET. I posted basic
details about my sources and you look at where I have been the last few
years its not hard to figure out. If you choose not to believe me,
thats your choice.
But merely take a survey of this group, and then assume with all the
bleeding edge diehards that even that number is a bit high....
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Bob Dawson writes:
Quote
>>(Sure there are some, and I am sure TeamB will respond they are all
>>using it)
>
>I very much doubt that we all are.

Nor would I expect anyone on TeamB to have claimed so. Chad's dig was
gratuitous to his argument, and undeserved in content.
I should have been clearer here and I understand how this could be
misinterpreted. I fully expect TB to respond - what I meant in this
comment is that I fully expect some of the comments I got earlier from
some TeamB members - "Im using Delphi.NET and I find it to be just
dandy! Are you saying I am misrepresentative? I am using it therefore
tons of others must be too. And it really is just dandy - ignore the
other thread here where literaly noone else is happy with speed or
stability, I am telling you, its great!"
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Wayne Niddery [TeamB] writes:
Quote
mirror sites). According to that Delphi for .Net and C# got 14% each
It would be interesting to see how many were for C#, but of course
there is not.
Quote
compared to 48% for Delphi Win32 and 1/2 that for C++. I don't think
But even 14 to 48 - and as other messages posted here, we dont know how
many kept on using it.
These numbers are not a good indicator of usage. A poll of this group
would do much better, but looking at how many names are here recently I
dont think the sample size would be big enough.
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Jolyon Smith writes:
Quote
That right now, 3 times as many people are interested in using
More like 3.5.
Quote
Which comes as no great surprise to many, and is a bit of a slap in
the face for the .net-centric path followed by Borland in recent
years.
So again - let me figure this out. Since there are only 2 of us
interested in only Win32.. That would make 1 .NET user? :)
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Wayne Niddery [TeamB] writes:
Quote
As for your assertions about the ignorance of downloaders, the only
numbers that can answer that are registration numbers which we, of
course, are not privy to.
By registration do you mean sales figures? Or just some kind of email
regtisration after the fact?
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Dave Nottage [TeamB] writes:
Quote
>Delphi is way behind on .NET

So improving it so it isn't is not an option? that is pretty defeatist.

>and almost no one is using it for .NET

Please provide proof.
I've already replied to both of these in previous posts in this thread.
If you are new to the thread you should read back.
Quote
>(Sure there are some, and I am sure TeamB will respond they are all
>using it)

I very much doubt that we all are.
I already tried to clarify this one - but again I can see the "all"
confusing. In this case I mean "all" being all the ones who replied.
Several times already someone states something and a few members of TB
reply "Thats not true - were doing x" without any other supporting
evidence other than their choice.
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

"Chad Z. Hower" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Wayne Niddery [TeamB] writes:
>mirror sites). According to that Delphi for .Net and C# got 14% each

It just indicates that 14% were curious enough to download it. The first
thing they would have done in nearly every instance is compare it to VS...
If the downloader is unfamiliar with VS (not using it because perhaps they
are a Delphi/32 developer) then I would doubt that downloader can be considered
a serious user yet. When it comes time to pay money for an IDE, they'll
check out all their options and suddenly realize, if they haven't already,
that the BDS personality is on .NET 1.1 and VS will soon be on .NET 3.0...
I doubt even Albert Einstein, Henry Ford, and Lee Iacoca combined could
figure out how to market such a product with a straight face. The situation
in truly ridiculous.
-d
 

Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

"Chad Z. Hower" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

These numbers are not a good indicator of usage. A poll of this group
would do much better, but looking at how many names are here recently I
dont think the sample size would be big enough.

Maybe a better indicator would be the numbers of subscribers / traffic in
the Borland Win32 newsgroups compared to the numbers of subscribers /
traffic in the Borland dotnet newsgroups.
 

Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Chris Burrows writes:
Quote
Maybe a better indicator would be the numbers of subscribers /
traffic in the Borland Win32 newsgroups compared to the numbers of
subscribers / traffic in the Borland dotnet newsgroups.
Might be at least a finger in the wind - but I would like to suggest you
count individual authors rather than traffic. Would be interesting none
the less.
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Jeff.C writes:
Quote
Fast forward to today and it almost looks like:
.NET + Chrome + VS + ReSharper or CodeRush
would be the better choice than what Delphi is offering. If Delphi
Oh you heretic! Put on your abestos underwear.
Quote
people who decided to move to .NET and VS 2005. If it built a better
GUI windowing system vs WinForms/WPF/XAML that was cross platform
(Linux, OSX) and rendered fast then that would be a different choice.
Might look at WPF/E....
Quote
I think it has already lost the .NET race and is too far behind to try
and compete with C#/VS combination. It would make more sense to offer
Jeff - but thats becuase you dont have faith you defeatest! They only
need to try harder and 20 times the resources. What- you don't think
this is possible and in the plans with the buyer? Its people like you
why others are leaving Delphi. You are spreading discontent and
dissention!
Quote
package with a plug-in for VS IDE and a new Delphi language like
Chrome for .NET than to try and play catchup. Most people who want
.NET 2.0 have already moved to VS and C# or Chrome.
Oh yeah? Show me the numbers? Where's your proof? There are at least
half a dozen people on the Delphi.NET newsgroup and only 5 of the 6 are
TeamB.
You are just being defeatist again. Sure *some* people went to VS, but
Delphi 2010 will be MUCH better and you will see. All the people waiting
for .NET to mature and who are still using Win32 will then upgrade from
their Delphi 5 and 6 which is already 5 and 6 versions old. And then
DTG will have a lot of money from the upgrades. can not you see the
fallacy of your logic? You are clearly wrong.
Quote
Key problem is that Borland was known for true innovation in the past
and offering different choices. Then due to mismanagement they lost
But its Delphi! Port it to .NET and they will come!
Quote
Today we have things like AOP in Java, Generics, Reflection, true full
Serialization of objects, and huge open source projects supporting
both Java (Hibernate, Spring, Struts) and .NET (NHibernate,
dotNetNuke, Atlas Control Toolkit, Piccolo, Mono).
What are you saying DTG can not do it? Your defeating them before they
start. Its all a matter of resources - when the buyout happens Frito
Lay has tons of cash and will invest a lot of spud into making the team
20 times bigger to the level they will need to keep up with Visual
Studio - let alone compete with it.
Quote
But if you look at the VCL it is just not up to{*word*47}when compared to
todays modern frameworks. And the choice Borland/DevCo leaves you
with is to move to .NET for these new things.
OMG! I cant believe you said that! Its not Old - its classic. Its SOO
good in fact it doesnt need to be updated. It has so many elegant areas
that it competes on its own against much newer architectures which
learned from VCL, JDK and more.
Quote
Delphi offers ECO, but look at the options .NET has:
csharp-source.net/open-source/persistence
But how many of those work with Delphi or have Delphi samples? Hmm???
Now your seeing the failure of your ways, I can hear your knees
knocking.
Quote
DevCo, I think needs to stop thinking like Borland and do some radical
and innovative things. But, first deliver what their customers need
today, right now.
Nope. DTG has to thing about where their customers are going. Many have
gone to VS, so DTG MUST compete with VS to get the other users who will
go there. Forget where the users are now! You have to look to the
future!
Quote
- stable and Fast IDE
It is stable and fast. Several TeamB membes have repeatedly posted it
works just dandy for them.
Quote
- Good Help system in IDE
It is good - its just different. You have to understand the Delphi way
of things. Different is not always bad. Just a few paragraphs ago you
were saying DTG had to think different, now you are saying they have to
be the same?
Quote
- Unicode in Win32
DevCo's users are largely American and English speaking. Many of them
have said thy don't care about other languages that use funny symbols.
Quote
I think Borland needs to get back to its roots of offering developers
different choices than Microsoft. The classic Borland market and
But they will! As soon as DTG can clone Visual Studio, THEN they will
differentiate. Until then ECO is different enough. And its succeeding
in .NET as well, I heard that one C# user is using it!
Quote
be impressive. However, I am not even sure if one can take a VM
language and make it compiled. But I thought I have seen this done
before for Java.
You can. And you can even embed WPF controls on WinForms, or actaully
any window.. including VCL Win32. But thats thinking outside the box.
We need to conform before we can be different.
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Re: Why aren't you upgrading?

Dennis Landi writes:
Quote
is on .NET 1.1 and VS will soon be on .NET 3.0... I doubt even Albert
Einstein, Henry Ford, and Lee Iacoca combined could figure out how to
market such a product with a straight face. The situation in truly
ridiculous.
Thats becuase you choose to make it ridiculous. Show me YOUR numbers!
There are HUGE numbers of people using Delphi.NET. Even if you just
look at the number of TeamB people using Delphi for .NET - extrapolate
to the million strong Delphi user base you will see the wisdom.
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