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Re: Turbo pricing available


2006-08-23 04:42:20 PM
delphi158
Jolyon Smith writes:
Quote
Unfortunately I am a pessimist by training,
I usually categorize myself as "pessimistic realist, or maybe realistic
pessimist", which means I am good at finding bugs in programs.
--
Anders Isaksson, Sweden
BlockCAD: web.telia.com/~u16122508/proglego.htm
Gallery: web.telia.com/~u16122508/gallery/index.htm
 
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

Nick Hodges (Borland/DevCo) writes:
Quote
Jon Robertson writes:

>Hopefully, DevCo will revamp SA.

It's pretty much out of my hands, but I agree. I also have some ideas
on the topic, as you might imagine. ;-)
The "no nonsense software assurance" agreement!
--
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

IanH writes:
Quote
telling pre-BDS customers that they
should not even have an upgrade to BDS - Bob's point that I picked up
on - is completely wrong.
AFAIK, it is also untrue. Apparently customers who have D3 or higher
can upgrade to BDS.
Also, those who have already upgraded from Delphi 7 Pro to BDS 2006 Pro (who
are interested in Win32 only) might think it unfair if Delphi 7 Pro users
were able to upgrade to Turbo Delphi for Win32 Pro for less than they
paid for their upgrade to BDS 2006.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

Dave Nottage [TeamB] writes:
Quote
IanH writes:

>telling pre-BDS customers that they
>should not even have an upgrade to BDS - Bob's point that I picked
>up on - is completely wrong.

AFAIK, it is also untrue. Apparently customers who have D3 or higher
can upgrade to BDS.
AAAARGGH. I did not say that it was true - it was a suggestion by Bob,
who said:
<quote>
So why on earth should DevCo give pre-BDS customers an
upgrade price on current products at all? They're not really current
customers.
</quote>
In his defence - though I'd not dream of telling you what Bob
thinks - I'd guess that it was not a concrete strategy idea, but
more a sign of exasperation at the demands of some people for an
improved discount path to Turbo. As it was, I jumped on the idea
because I think any such move would be a really bad one: I don't want
this sort of thinking to get any traction.
Quote
Also, those who have already upgraded from Delphi 7 Pro to BDS 2006 Pro (who
are interested in Win32 only) might think it unfair if Delphi 7 Pro users
were able to upgrade to Turbo Delphi for Win32 Pro for less than they
paid for their upgrade to BDS 2006.
They might well think that. If they think that the extra price thay
have paid (what are we talking about here: $50? $100?) for the
additional capabilities of the full BDS are not worth it, does this
suggest that Borland have offered the wrong thing for the last few
versions?
It is not possible to reach a conclusion about the correct upgrade
price/scheme without knowing a breakdown of the market. How many users
- have stayed on previous versions
- have upgraded but only use Win32
- have upgraded and use both Win32 + .NET
- have upgraded and use .NET only
- have left Delphi for Visual Studio
I have no idea what the numbers are. I can only hope that DevCo do, and
that this time their market research isn't completely useless.
Ian
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

Dave Nottage [TeamB] writes:
Quote
IanH writes:

>telling pre-BDS customers that they
>should not even have an upgrade to BDS - Bob's point that I picked
>up on - is completely wrong.

AFAIK, it is also untrue.
Depends on whether you play along with the word games
- Is Turbo a version of BDS? Yes
- Can I upgrade to BDS? Yes
- So I can upgrade to Turbo? No - it is a different product.
So you can not upgrade to BDS in this context.
(Lower SKU's? My Delphi 7 says "Pro" on the box - Turbo says/will say
Delphi Pro on the box. Lower SKU's?)
Quote
Also, those who have already upgraded from Delphi 7 Pro to BDS 2006 Pro (who
are interested in Win32 only) might think it unfair if Delphi 7 Pro users
were able to upgrade to Turbo Delphi for Win32 Pro for less than they
paid for their upgrade to BDS 2006.
By that logic it is equally unfair for Delphi 7 Pro users to be able to
upgrade to BDS 2006 at the same price that is available to BDS 2005
users.
So I expect you subscribe to the view that henceforth, to ensure fair
treatment of all customers, no-one, and I mean _no-one_ shall be
entitled to an upgrade price unless they are upgrading from one version
to the immediately succeeding version.
A period of transition? One last chance for those not on the current
version to get up-to-date and then only upgrades permitted from current
versions?
Ok, so it is fair to be unfair for this one last chance in order to tie
all users into a cycle of mandatory upgrades just to remain current
even if a particular version isn't actually something they need.
Fair?
--
Jolyon Smith
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

"IanH" wrote
Quote
thinks - I'd guess that it was not a concrete strategy idea, but
more a sign of exasperation at the demands of some people for an
improved discount path to Turbo.
Bingo. And specifically exasperation at the sense of entitlement--that
Borland/DevCo somehow 'owes' people a discount to a new product line.
If DTG wants/chooses to do this, fine. But the criticism/outrage/whining
about it not being announced here already are pathetic.
Quote
They might well think that. If they think that the extra price thay
have paid (what are we talking about here: $50? $100?) for the
additional capabilities of the full BDS are not worth it, does this
suggest that Borland have offered the wrong thing for the last few
versions?
Why not the wrong thing for a few people who aren't keeping up with the
field of Windows programming? Exactly the same tired lines were trotted out
in the days of Delphi 4 -6: "What's this COM, CORBA, internet thing all
about? I don't care about internet. I just want my desktop system." Well.
looks like the web turned out to be an important thing after all. Point: a
developer tools company is SUPPOSED to be out in front of its customers.
Quote
It is not possible to reach a conclusion about the correct upgrade
price/scheme without knowing a breakdown of the market.
Couldn't have said it better. Rather than trying to account for Borland's
'mistakes,' about all anyone here can do is speculate about what those facts
must look like to have led Borland to act as they have.
bobD
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

"Jolyon Smith" wrote
Quote

- Is Turbo a version of BDS?
Technically it is a derivation of the BDS codebase, so in that specific
sense yes.
However, it is a subset of that codebase, reconfigured as a new product.
No similar subset has been offered before.
Quote
- Can I upgrade to BDS? Yes
- So I can upgrade to Turbo? No - it is a different product.
Exactly
bobD
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

Jolyon, I know you are frustrated. There have been many times in my life
where I have felt like I "get it" and the others don't--and the more you
scream from the mountaintop, the more frustrating it becomes.
Believe me, we *understand* your point and reasoning, we just don't
*agree* with it. I guess it just boils down the way people are. I make
commercial apps, each app/version takes a monumental amount of work (and
decreases my lifespan each time :-)
I am on Borland's/DevCo's side on this one because it is the way I view
it: it is frustrating to me to see Borland/DevCo flounder and have people
talk about "Delphi is dead" all the time, and then hear about how there
are thousands and thousands of people lingering on D4, D5, D6, D7.
Likewise, with the stench of Delphi 8 and D2005, Borland takes its share of
the blame too.
Delphi is a way of life for me and all I want is Win32 (for now), and I
want Borland/DevCo to work on the features that I want them too, while
ignoring the requests of others, but I also realize that Borland/DevCo
must stay in business, so that I can stay in business.
Quote
:)
(Apologies for the reptition - an unfortunate side effect of the
somewhat circular arguments being deployed imho)
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

IanH writes:
Quote
Yeah, typically "under $499" means $498
Okay, I will go ahead and say it will be under $498. ;-)
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi/C# Product Manager - Borland DTG
blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

"Nick Hodges (Borland/DevCo)" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
IanH writes:

>Yeah, typically "under $499" means $498

Okay, I will go ahead and say it will be under $498. ;-)
Including shipping charges?????
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

Rick Carter writes:
Quote
Nick Hodges writes:
>Okay, I will go ahead and say it will be under $498. ;-)

Will it be under $497?

Hmmm, Dutch Auction time????
--
John Wester
- Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts.
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

Rick Carter writes:
Quote
Will it be under $497?
I'm going to hold off on that one. ;-)
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi/C# Product Manager - Borland DTG
blogs.borland.com/nickhodges
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

Nick Hodges writes:
Quote
Okay, I will go ahead and say it will be under $498. ;-)
Will it be under $497?
Rick Carter
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group
--- posted by geoForum on delphi.newswhat.com
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

Quote
If you see no value for yourself in doing so, then of course not. Should
Borland bow to *your* wants just because you want them?
Should be the same answer.
The "want" part was in response to Jon's comment.
The point I was trying to make is that there is some value for me in the
newer version of Delphi but not enough to justify the price tag being
bandied about. I don't need to upgrade so for me it is a nice to have.
I don't make any money from it so there is no financial justfication for
the upgrade. Explorer is not an option because of the third party
controls that I use.
Its not about me wanting anything other then to support DevCo. But there
is no affordable upgrade path for me. DevCo have an opportunity to bring
a whole bunch of the old users up to date with the Turbo range and this
is where I feel they are falling short.
My guess is that the biggest single fall off of Delphi upgrades was the
D5 to Delphi 6 upgrade which is when the pro upgrade price went from $250 to
$400 (60%) and the enterprise upgrade went from $1700 to $2400 (41%).
Since then Borland have done admirably in keeping the increases down but
that was an massive increase.
Cheers
Dean
--- posted by geoForum on delphi.newswhat.com
 

Re: Turbo pricing available

Quote
RC>Will it be under $497?
What do you think, can we go under $50 this way? :))
Not before Sept 5th.