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Re: To all who may concern in Borland


2003-10-07 10:28:55 PM
delphi88
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) writes:
Quote
AFAIK, there was no *integrated* DOS16 de{*word*81} either. <g>
The Borland Pascal 7 IDE does have an integrated real-mode
(DOS16) de{*word*81}. The IDE also supports the DPMI
and Windows platforms but you can not debug them
from inside the IDE, you need to use an external
de{*word*81} which is a royal p.i.t.a.
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(please remove the ".net" from my e-mail address)
 
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Quote
We made a DOS version of Delphi (Turbo Pascal).
We made a DPMI version of Delphi (Borland Pascal).
We made a Win16 version of Delphi (Borland Pascal for Windows and
then Delphi 1) We made a Win32 version of Delphi.
We made a Linux version of Delphi (Kylix).
We are making a .NET version of Delphi (Octane).
So we could expect Octane v.1.0? in that case there is no problem! But
if we should expect Delphi v8 as Octane ther is one. In that case it
sounds like the long-term plan is to give up Delphi for Win32 native.
Quote
Why is the last step of this 20 year evolution a problem?
If it is a step like from Delphi to Kylix there is none. If it is like
from TP7 to D1 then YES there is one!
Quote
The fact that Octane is coming out doesn't mean that Delphi for Win32
is dead.
TP7 is also not dead (cause people still program with it...) - but not
supported/developed by Borland since D1.
Quote
>You know, I have always defended you - things started to change this
>June. Now it is time you just SPEAK TO US, I am fed up with secrecy!
I hope we need not defend the interests of us.... I am a peaceful man.
Give us information we need to do decisions! Just give us the base to
have a chance to take decisions! At the moment information flaws are
rare:
"I know there is Delphi 7 (no info when SP, when next release, ...) and I
know there will be Octane (no information what's exactly, where to find
detail - spec of it, only that it should be for .Net)"
This information is not even 5% of that needed to take decisions! And
this for one year! We have to upgrade 4 other work-places with a newer
Version and will not do that if no information is provided about the
future of the product for Win32. There are some bugs really bad for us,
so also bugfix-time is really relevant.
We also just don't need a .Net environment now! We now do the step to
native Win32 app's. (The system behind the GUI still runs on Dos with
TP7 program's - think of the speed of a GHz CPU under Dos! Perfect for
a processing - only device! Win32 and .Net are far, far away from that)!
And yes, there are enough customers buying our products...
But it is the same as with TP/D1 we will buy the last version of the
product, and use it the next few years (as long as needed).
Quote
What secrecy? What do you want to know?
Plans, date's maybe times what's happening with Delphi, how Octane is
seen in the hirachy of products, ....
EVERYTHING that could interfere the plans of companies. Irrelevant if
there is a collision with financial interests of Borland. Tell us
what's really up!
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Arthur Hoornweg writes:
Quote
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) writes:

>AFAIK, there was no integrated DOS16 de{*word*81} either. <g>
The Borland Pascal 7 IDE does have an integrated real-mode
(DOS16) de{*word*81}. The IDE also supports the DPMI
and Windows platforms but you can not debug them
from inside the IDE, you need to use an external
de{*word*81} which is a royal p.i.t.a.
Whow, it *is* long time I used it. I had forgotten about that. But the
internal de{*word*81} doesn't do assembler, does it?
--
Rudy Velthuis (TeamB)
"God gave men both a {*word*205} and a brain, but unfortunately not enough
{*word*76}
supply to run both at the same time."
-- Robin Williams, commenting on the Clinton/Lewinsky affair
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Arthur Hoornweg writes:
Quote
- Get us UNICODE support. Please! Please!
IIRC, there are no plans for unicode support for Delphi Win32.
Quote
- Folding sourcecode Editor a la Visual Studio
Since Delphi for .NET and Delphi Win32 are supposed to be using the
same IDE core, this would appear to be a given.
--
Dave Nottage (TeamB)
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Because Borland promised that one product, Octane, would support .NET
and Win32 and now seems to be reneging on that promise. This does a lot
more than sadden me.
"Anders Ohlsson (Borland)" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
>Now I read all that about dotNET and about the fact you will deliver a
>dotNET only version of Delphi. That saddens me a whole lot.
>What are you doing guys? What are you planning to do?
>

Why does that sadden you a lot?

We made a DOS version of Delphi (Turbo Pascal).
We made a DPMI version of Delphi (Borland Pascal).
We made a Win16 version of Delphi (Borland Pascal for Windows and then
Delphi 1)
We made a Win32 version of Delphi.
We made a Linux version of Delphi (Kylix).
We are making a .NET version of Delphi (Octane).

Why is the last step of this 20 year evolution a problem?
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Leroy Casterline writes:
Quote
Because Borland promised that one product, Octane, would support .NET
and Win32 and now seems to be reneging on that promise. This does a lot
more than sadden me.

Have you heard of forward looking statements?
--
Cheers,
Phillip Flores
"Keep track of your time...Use VeriTime"
www.pcfworks.com
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Yes, I have. Which part of "This is our commitment to the Delphi user
community." is a forward-looking statement?
For that matter, can you point out anything other than the delivery date
in the Open Letter that indicates it is anything other than a promise?
Phillip Flores <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
Have you heard of forward looking statements?
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Leroy Casterline writes:
Quote
Because Borland promised that one product, Octane, would support .NET
and Win32 and now seems to be reneging on that promise.
Here we go again.
Don
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Not again. Still. And repeatedly, until I have received satisfaction
from Borland. They may not take their commitments seriously, but I must.
I have spent a lot of money based on Borland's written and explicit
commitment. I have every right and reason to expect that Borland will
fulfill their "commitment to the Delphi user community" of which I am a
part.
Before you again say that no commitment was made, please review the Open
Letter, reproduced below in full.
Don <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
Here we go again.

Don
"Valued Delphi Community,
As we celebrate the 20th anniversary of Borland, we are also celebrating
the 8th anniversary of Borland?Delphi.?Delphi has been an ongoing and
an integral part of the success of Borland. Each release of Delphi has
focused on improving the day to day lives of developers by radically
simplifying the latest trends and technologies in IT. In 2002 Borland
shipped the most successful Delphi edition to date, Delphi 7 Studio.
Delphi 7 Studio introduced the next-generation concepts of Model Driven
Development to deliver major productivity improvements. "Borland
software has helped speed up application development ten-fold,
dramatically reduced administrative workload, and ultimately improved
the robustness and stability of the parliament's document management
system." -Ulf Christoffersson, Deputy Secretary General, Swedish
Parliament
For the 8th anniversary of Delphi, Borland is preparing the most
significant Delphi release, code named "Octane". Delphi has always
followed the Microsoft?Windows?platform closely, providing support for
new Windows technologies as they are introduced. In 2003 Microsoft is
readying a new Windows operating system, Windows Server 2003,
specifically designed around the next release of the .NET platform.
Octane will provide full support for both Windows 2003 and the
Microsoft?.NET Framework.
Helping our customers move into the future without abandoning the past
is more than a mantra at Borland. It is a core value, and Octane is a
perfect embodiment of this value. Octane will continue to provide Visual
Component Library (VCL) and Component Library for Cross-platform (CLX)
development for Win32?as well as new features and continued framework,
compiler, IDE, and design time enhancements. However, the most
significant new features are in the world of .NET. Octane will include
full Delphi language support for building 100% pure .NET applications.
This will include integrated visual development for the entire .NET
framework including Windows Forms, ASP.NET WebForms and Web Services,
and ADO.NET. In addition, Octane will also include a pure .NET version
of the VCL framework to enable the migration of existing Win32
applications to .NET. The combination of the Delphi for .NET language,
VCL for .NET framework and design time tools will enable Delphi
developers to instantly leverage all of their existing knowledge and
skills and much of their existing source code for the .NET platform.
This is our commitment to the Delphi user community.
Octane will be based on a new Windows-based IDE core that is designed to
host multiple Win32 and .NET development systems. The same IDE will
support both Win32 and .NET development with the same IDE experience.
Octane is well underway and our release plan is to deliver Octane at the
end of 2003. Plans are also well underway for Delphi releases in 2004
and beyond. At Borland we are e{*word*277}d to continue the Delphi journey
with you, the best developers and customers in the world, for many years
to come.
Simon Thornhill
Vice President and General Manager
RAD Solutions
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Leroy Casterline writes:
Quote
Not again. Still.
Don't you think one thread is enough though?
Don
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Leroy Casterline writes:
Quote
Not again. Still. And repeatedly, until I have received satisfaction
from Borland.
FWIW, Borland aren't going to release information that they're not
ready to due to you repeating what you've been saying.
I don't find it unacceptable that someone might say they were going to
do something, only to find a fork in the road that causes them to
reassess the situation, and not be able to say whether and/or when
they'll be able to reach the destination as a result, especially when
they said it six months beforehand. I guess you do.
It makes me wonder what kind of effect release dates of Windows had on
you.
--
Dave Nottage (TeamB)
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) writes:
Quote
Whow, it *is* long time I used it. I had forgotten about that. But the
internal de{*word*81} doesn't do assembler, does it?
It handles inline assembler (ASM...END) nicely but
doesn't show the compiled statements, no. The external
de{*word*81} does.
I refrained from using DPMI after I found a piece of
freeware source code that lets me use XMS for overlays.
BP7's overlay manager is VERY fast and flexible, they
used to call it "VROOMM" (virtual runtime object-oriented
memory manager). In Hejlsberg's lingo...
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(please remove the ".net" from my e-mail address)
 

Re: To all who may concern in Borland

Quote
used to call it "VROOMM" (virtual runtime object-oriented
memory manager). In Hejlsberg's lingo...
It was also called YALTA