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Re: Borland Layoffs?


2003-12-30 07:45:03 AM
delphi241
On 29-Dec-03, Jim Rowell said:
Quote
That's pretty interesting. But are you sure the problem was with the
spec? I mean, having the right product is not even close to being
enough sometimes. You still have to sell it. Gotta have the right
appearance... the right song and dance so to speak. Not preaching
here... I am quite interested in this. Why do you think the spec
failed?
The entire exercise played out in multiple parts. In the first part,
they unveiled a broad strokes goal, and asked for required features,
IIRC. Then, after evaluating the responses, and distilling their
essence, they built a detailed spec, and presented it in the context of
a target price, delivery date, and other critical info. At that point,
they were asking, as well, *if* they built such a product, and met the
stated specs, then what would be the desired quantity and schedule for
purchase.
It was interesting to me, because although I was no longer with the
company at that point, the product was highly desirable to my employer,
and more affordable than alternatives.
A number of the companies canvassed in the pre-production surveys did
buy, but only a few bought anything like the number they had themselves
predicted. Of those few who did, they were enormously pleased with the
results, both technically, and economically. Some of these also bought
additional product, beyond their predictions.
Some of the companies that responded with the greatest detail and
stringency in their requirements, not only did not buy, but would not
even schedule an in-house eval of the units. Numerous theories were
bruited about, but I never heard any plausible explanation for their
behavior.
FWIW, the machines in question were offered at about $100K, and
exceeded the quality and performance of the market leader of the time,
a machine that cost over twice as much. There were other issues,
including reduced cost of consumables, lower maintenance costs, etc.
(in favor of the less expensive product.)
--
Bill
--------
"You can not keep on doing things the old way and still get the benefits
of the new way." -- Thomas Sowell
 
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

"JoeH" <JoeH__at__hqters.com>writes
Quote
"Derek Davidson" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote
>The *REALLY* sad thing would be if Dev
>Express decide that they're not
>going to put in fixes for errors in
>Borland code so depriving D8fDN
>of those fabulous components.

Then why did I just get a reasuring response via email
that we DevEx VCL subscribers would have a vcl.net
upgrade in the near future ? Sounds like they are
moving ahead full steam to support Delphi 8 to me !
I think this is a completely different consideration. It is my
understanding that the existing DevEx .NET controls will not work with D8
due to problems in D8. These are the controls that work fine with VS C# and
other .NET languages.
The "conversion" of DevEx's VCL controls to work with VCL.NET is another
matter. Personally, I wish they wouldn't use their resources on this task
and instead give me lots of new .NET controls for my DevEx subscription.
<vbg>
-Johnnie
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

"William Meyer" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
On 29-Dec-03, Derek Davidson said:
Many years ago, the company for which I worked at the time canvassed
all the major users (in the world) of products of the sort they
manufactured, attempting to define an "ideal" specification for the
machine in question. Surprisingly, they were able to develop a product
that closely matched the aggregate wishlist of features, including a
relatively low cost. In spite of having achieved their goal, they found
the market exceedingly small. In spite of the rave reviews from those
customers who did buy the product, they were unable to grow the market.
That's pretty interesting. But are you sure the problem was with the spec? I
mean, having the right product is not even close to being enough sometimes.
You still have to sell it. Gotta have the right appearance... the right song
and dance so to speak. Not preaching here... I am quite interested in this.
Why do you think the spec failed?
It is also possible that the questionaire managed only to define what the
customers needed rather than what they wanted. I recall a customer of mine
who told me they were planning to replace a certain machine at a cost of
over 1 million dollars. I was very familiar with the machine and was
flabergasted they would consider this. They had never provided anywhere near
enough in the budget to properly maintain it and now they were planning on
spending this kind of money? I proposed a $50,000.00 makeover for the old
one and promised them it would perform equal to a new one in less time than
it would take to even install a new one. This would save them over 1 million
dollars. Not only did they not accept, they were visibly horrified at the
suggestion. I was very confused about their reaction until a friend of mine
patiently explained it to me (he was quite amused by the whole thing). They
*NEEDED* a machine that did the job. They *WANTED* a shiny new machine with
a massive pricetag. Kind of like why I have a new vehicle. <g>
Jim Rowell
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

Thanks, Tom, for your reply.
It seems to me honest as much as possible.
With all respects to TeamB'ers, it is very important to see Borlanders here.
Yes, of course, we got J. Kaster and A. Ohlson, but we've used to them, so they do not count :))
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

Johnnie Norsworthy writes:
Quote
I think this is a completely different consideration. It is my
understanding that the existing DevEx .NET controls will not work
with Delphi 8 due to problems in D8. These are the controls that work fine
with VS C# and other .NET languages.
Yep. that is exactly the situation. The problem appears to be related to
design time issues. As you know, DevEx components use some very
advanced design time techniques and it appears that the Delphi IDE
doesn't isn't sufficiently VS.NET compatible to support them (this is
in WinForms mode, BTW).
Quote
The "conversion" of DevEx's VCL controls to work with VCL.NET is
another matter. Personally, I wish they wouldn't use their resources
on this task and instead give me lots of new .NET controls for my
DevEx subscription. <vbg>
I would go further and suggest that Borland have done such a
comprehensive job in creating full compatibility with a legacy
framework (VCL), that the more important task of fully supporting the
framework of the next few years may have suffered somewhat.
Having said that, a week of playing with Delphi 8 has convinced me just
far ahead of the VCL the .NET framework actually is, as well as how
amazing a job Borland have done in adapting the Delphi language to take
advantage of it. The reported problems are to do with the IDE, not the
language itself, it seems.
I have, however, noticed that many non DevEx .NET components (both
freeware and commercial, eg. the ComponentOne suite) play nicely with
Delphi, so I don't think the situation is as drastic as it may appear.
I would be interested to hear Borland's side of the arguement with
regard to the DevEx compatibility issue. I wonder if DevEx may have
strayed beyond the recommended .NET guidelines in order to take
advantage of the VS.NET design-time capabilities - gone too "close to
the metal", IOW. This is, of course, pure conjecture on my part.
--
Carl
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

Quote
In many ways, they are just repeating the mistake Intel
did with RamBus. RamBus was good for some things, but hideous
for others...
Can you give, plz, some details (or links), as I want to buy "rambused" PC.
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

(unrelated to the subthread)
Mr. Intersimone,
is there any reason you did not answer my "5-question" message in this thread?
(your comments as Borland VP, or just "interesting man" would be highly appreciated)
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

Quote
And we should all fawn with Uriah Heep type hand wringing thanks?
Hey, man, don't mention Uriah Heep just like that. At July Morning Look at Yourself ;)
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

"Johnnie Norsworthy" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote
Quote
I think this is a completely different consideration.
Not at all. If I can transfer DevEx vcl component knowledge
easily to vcl.net, it is the main consideration for me.
Quote
Personally, I wish they wouldn't
use their resources on this task
and instead give me lots of new
.NET controls for my DevEx subscription.
<vbg>
Then I am all the more reassured by their email
regarding vcl.net migration. The vcl.net
'resources' sound solidly in place. :-)
--
JoeH [ www.amnesty.org : write a letter, save a life ]
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

The thread has gotten so long and I have been on vacation and on and off this
newsgroup the past week or so. 5 questions?
"Andrew Rybenkov" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
(unrelated to the subthread)

Mr. Intersimone,

is there any reason you did not answer my "5-question" message in this
thread?

(your comments as Borland VP, or just "interesting man" would be highly
appreciated)

--
Andrew Rybenkov.



 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

David Intersimone (Borland) writes:
Quote
The thread has gotten so long and I have been on vacation and on and off this
newsgroup the past week or so. 5 questions?

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the...
Oh, wait, wrong questions.
I've taken the liberty of re-posting Andrew's questions below, he
originally posted them on 12/25.
David Erbas-White
re-post of Andrew's questions:
First of all, thanks for coming to us (should we consider you as Santa
Claus? .
Instead my usual comparing ye ol' good times vs modern, I will try to be
more constructive, and propose the next questions/suggestions/comments.
1) why Borland still ignores hardware market? In sense that its
compilers do not support driver format.
We all see there are a lot of hardware manufacturers (HM), also we all
see how buggy drivers of most HMs.
They use to release version by version. Maybe HMs cannot find qualified
programmers?
Impossible to believe. Other explanation: most of them use wrong tools,
and here Borland could come with, say, Delphi and its IDE (and
corresponding wizards, of course). (IMHO) HMs are less conservative
than corporations and will gladly accept any opportunity to diminish
their expenses in their highly competetive market.
2a) why Borland stopped to develop compilers? With abonding C++ there is
only compiler left: Delphi. And to say honestly it still generates
D2/I386 code (which is rather obsolete these days). Yes, of course,
there are C#B and DfDN, but that is even worse, if Borland's programs
would require VBRUNxx.DLLs to run.
2b) As some of us see, Borland decided to become MS' aide-de-camp in the
matter of NET. Yet history of MS relations with other companies and
Borland itself shows that is very dangerous thing. To 100% trust them is
the same as to walk on ice at early spring.
Maybe tomorrow will be even colder than today, but most probably
tomorrow thaw will begin. As Frank de Groot attracted our attention
("Massive improvement in MS in Win32 compiler" thread) to the fact that
while MS is hyping about NET, it doesn't forget about native compilers
(to say it softly). Why is that?
2c) as some of us see it, Borland does that NET dancing, because it
consider it as the easiest way to expand its presence on other
OSes and CPUs. But why not to cooperate with FreePascal folks? their
compiler supports many OSes and CPUs. Moreover FP is Delphi's superset
in some ways. They just lack decent IDE. And here you can come.
Consider, IDE is written in Delphi, and VCL is written in Delphi, - it
would not be that very difficult to port them to platforms FP supports.
And here you are, - everywhere without MS dependence.
3) Does Borland consider to grant an amnesty (limited in time and
versions) to pirate programmers. In Russia, for example, you could
collect a pretty sum just like that.
4) Is it so expensive to hire tech writers to write series Delphi books?
First of all, "Delphi in examples" with contents - each chapter for each
sample in Delphi\Sample subdir, where the sample will be discussed in
detail.
Other books (~70-150pp) just highlighting specific programming areas,
like "Delphi & DirectX", "Delphi and COMs", "Writing Real-time
Applications in Delphi", "Migrating from VB(Visual Basic) to Delphi", "Writing
Plug-ins for <popular application>", etc.
Also separate "What's New in Delphi X" book, that will discuss in detail
what was new in particular version, with examples and explaining what is
useful in a new feature for a programmer (remember OOP manual with TP5.5?).
In the Delphi order form there should be list of all those books, that a
customer could order too (optionally, for extra cost).
Considering there are still>1mil of Delphi developers, you will beat
Erle Stanley Gardner in no time
5) Revive "No-Nonsence Agreement", to say exactly, issue different
EULA's for organizations and {*word*137}rs.
Thanks for your time. All your comments will be appreciated (even if you
disclaim some of them as "personal").
PS If you would travelled with CCR (not Greatful Dead) I would have more
questions ;))
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

Steve Tyrakowski writes:
Quote
experimental patches and some tips on how to find them in CC. A link
in QualityCentral to an experimental fix entry in CC would close the
loop even more.
No need for the link to CC. QC supports workarounds.
--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, bdn.borland.com
Don't miss the best BorCon ever! info.borland.com/conf2003/
Add a feature/Fix a bug: qc.borland.com
Get source: codecentral.borland.com
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

"Carl Caulkett" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Yep. that is exactly the situation. The problem appears to be related to
design time issues. As you know, DevEx components use some very
advanced design time techniques and it appears that the Delphi IDE
doesn't isn't sufficiently VS.NET compatible to support them (this is
in WinForms mode, BTW).
I believe there are many issues with this and it doesn't just affect DevEx,
the main problem that I see is that the devex controls use VS specific
interfaces to provide that advanced design time experience. Since Delphi
isn't visual studio and probably doesn't implement the visual studio design
time interfaces (we are not talking about winforms here) it is hardly
supprising they don't work in D8.
I don't blame Borland for this, the component vendors have made a decision
to lock their products into VS, that not Borlands fault it is the vendor's
fault.
--
Regards
Vincent Parrett
Atozed Software www.atozedsoftware.com
---------------
Automate your Build Process with FinalBuilder
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

"Vincent Parrett (Atozed Software)" <vincent@.nospam.atozedsoftware.com>
writes news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
I believe there are many issues with this and it doesn't just affect
DevEx,
the main problem that I see is that the devex controls use VS specific
interfaces to provide that advanced design time experience. Since Delphi
isn't visual studio and probably doesn't implement the visual studio
design
time interfaces (we are not talking about winforms here) it is hardly
supprising they don't work in D8.
As I understand it - the VS/IP (Visual Studio Integration Partners)
agreement (where you get the APIs and such for VS) has wording in it that
keeps us from signing that agreement (and supporting those APIs) for our IDE
products. Our non-IDE products do integrate with VS.NET. If the issue is
that you can not use DevEx or other 3rd party components in Delphi 8 applications -
then we have to look at the issues. If there are APIs used in IDE designers
that we can not support, that is a different thing.
I can say that we've given field test versions of Delphi 8 to all 3rd party
component vendors who are part of our Borland Technology Partner program.
All members were also invited to a technology briefing earlier this year
where the plan for Delphi 8 was presented by the R&D team.
Quote
I don't blame Borland for this, the component vendors have made a decision
to lock their products into VS, that not Borlands fault it is the vendor's
fault.
I'll have John Kaster and Anders Ohlsson check with DevExpress and other 3rd
parties to see what else might or might not be going on regarding
compatibility with D8.
--
David Intersimone "David I"
VP, Developer Relations and Chief Evangelist
Borland Software Corporation
 

Re: Borland Layoffs?

Derek Davidson writes:
Quote
>Please don't see this as a cop out, but I can not answer that in any
>detail, it is not my area of responsibility, and I'd be in serious
>danger of being wedgied by someone who's area it is :-)

No - it is OK. I appreciate the predicament.
On the issue of us being or not being representative, I more-or-less shared your
feelings until I started reading alt.copm.lang.borland-delphi. Very, very few
names there that I recognize from here.
--
R.