Board index » delphi » Re: Take a deep breath...

Re: Take a deep breath...


2005-01-17 03:52:33 PM
delphi19
Quote
1) How many users of D5/D6/D7 ever bothered to upgrade to Delphi 8 (since it was
.net only)?
Tested D8, and then started investigations into VS, Eclipse and the search
for possible alternative languages... post-test feeling was that bad :/
Quote
2) Is the main reason many of these users went to D2005 beacuse of .net or
an update Win32 environment?
Win32 only. Not a chance of doing .Net with it.
The Delphi 8 / .Net 1.1 SP saga, the unability to run under mono or CF cast enough
doubts and fears: Delphi.Net-generated code might suddenly stumble on some
new .Net service pack, and/or some other aspect of the .Net spec that Borland
could have misinterpreted.
From a purely software point of view, buying a Borland IDE to use a MS compiler
and framework just adds an unnecessary layer of risk to further software
investment. Delphi originally offered something MS didn't (VCL and RAD, VB(Visual Basic) ease
with C++ efficiency), which made the risk worth taking.
But if Borland can not do their native compilers themselves (like when they
say they'll do Win64 support via MS.Net), then they are ultimately irrelevant
as a compiler company IMO, and for pure IDE stuff, they are now stragglers, so...
Quote
3) Lastly, IMO, I think that if Borland were to iron out most if the IDE
wrinkles so that it would not be so slow in switching forms or editing code [...]
Possible, the Win32 side would be the only one that matters, and it would
have to be stable enough to be the "ultimate" Win32 IDE for all future Win32
maintainance, as Win64 will dictate the next main IDE (VS2005 most likely).
Eric
 
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

F Malan schreef:
Quote
1) How many users of D5/D6/D7 ever bothered to upgrade to Delphi 8 (since it was
.net only)?
Don't know how many, but I didn't upgrade.
My applications are mostly COM and ADO based and thus not
portable. If I ever have to program for dotnet, I think I
would switch to C#.
Quote
2) Is the main reason many of these users went to D2005 beacuse of .net or
an update Win32 environment?
My interest in the dotnet part is literally zero.
I didn't switch yet, waiting for a stable release.
Newsgroup feedback on the last 2 Delphi releases was so
negative that I have adopted a "wait and see" attitude.
In fact I am not sure if I want to update at all.
I simply want D2005 to be able to do exactly what D7
can, but faster and better. If it doesn't live up to
that, then I don't need it.
My main interests would be (please don't laugh) the "folding"
capability of the editor and the possibility to finally be
able to directly document my programs in the sourcecode.
And I *do* need the remote de{*word*81}.
Quote
3) Lastly, IMO, I think that if Borland were to iron out most if the IDE
wrinkles so that it would not be so slow in switching forms or editing code
or generate so many AV's, it will certainly not matter to me that has .net /
Win32 personalities. If it is relatively smooth for Win32 so be it.
Why is it such a sacred cow to have both win32 and dotnet
personalities inside one IDE? The result will always be that
the IDE spends precious CPU time doing things that I don't
need, and to me that happens to be a source of irritation.
I am not prepared to give up the "turbo" feeling that I've
cherished for almost 20 years. But Borland won't listen to
me anyway.
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net"
from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact
including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to
counteract unsollicited mail.)
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

"Andrew Rybenkov" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>Face your fears, and take a little walk over to the Microsoft .Net or
>even VS ng's. Does it appear a war zone with lots of talk of
>instability,
>and disappointed users ? ... I think not.
>
>Does it appear a sleepy wasteland of no significance ? ... I think
>not. I
>can't even read the number of posts there, most coming from happy
>people
>pushing on and advancing their careers.

something very similar I have had heard about VB.
I am not sure what point you are making. .. ?
I had never heard anything but bad press about old style VB(Visual Basic) from a
programming career perspective.
I have seen some favourable reviews of the .Net version, but have zero
interest in it personally.
Barry Mossman
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

"Arthur Hoornweg" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

I am not prepared to give up the "turbo" feeling that I've
cherished for almost 20 years. But Borland won't listen to
me anyway.
Ah yes... Turbo Pascal, Turbo C... Those were the days. Also the days when
Borland produced an IDE that was not only ahead of its time, but Turbo fast.
I still remember (was it Turbo Pascal 5.5?) the back of the box where they
said:
"We wrote Turbo Pascal using Turbo Assembler.... now you could write your
next bestseller using Turbo Assembler too!"
I guess the same cannot be said of the D2005 IDE.
Please Borland, give it some Turbo treatment.
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
Both Win32 or .Net are shipped together. How do the Borland managers
decide which product is more successful?
They wont, they are both parts of a single product
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
For as long as Delphi is crudded up with dot net, it will be neither
fast nor stable.
That's just your opinion, not a fact. I have been on a team that wrote a
fast, stable .NET application, so that would appear to indicate that
your opinion is wrong.
I agree that D2005 needs work, but getting rid of .NET is quite
obviously not the solution.
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_______________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Falafel Software www.falafelsoft.com
_______________________________________________
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
1) How many users of D5/D6/D7 ever bothered to upgrade to Delphi 8 (since it was
.net only)?
Did not. Was not ready for .net. Already using D7.
Quote
2) Is the main reason many of these users went to D2005 beacuse of .net or
an update Win32 environment?\
I ordered D2005 and then cancelled because there are still to many bugs.
Main reason for ordering was Win32 and secondry reason to learn .net.
Quote
3) Lastly, IMO, I think that if Borland were to iron out most if the IDE
wrinkles so that it would not be so slow in switching forms or editing
code or generate so many AV's, it will certainly not matter to me that has
.net / Win32 personalities. If it is relatively smooth for Win32 so be it.
Yes. Please Borland are you listening.
Regards
Godfrey
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
Please Borland, give it some Turbo treatment.
He-he, instead Borland (or should we call them Inprise - they honestly deserve it)
gave it GW treatment - not to make now best buddy Billy G angry any more.
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Jim Cooper writes:
Quote
That's just your opinion, not a fact. I have been on a team that wrote
a fast, stable .NET application, so that would appear to indicate
that your opinion is wrong.
Your reproduction of Notepad doesn't count. <g>
Will
--
Want native support in Delphi for AMD64/EM64T? Vote here--
qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
Your reproduction of Notepad doesn't count. <g>
The application is quite complex. It is currently being used to run a
hotel and a dive school. There are Winforms pieces used in the hotel and
school, Windows and web services that transfer information from booking
agents into the on-site database, and a couple of web apps that allow
bookings and analysis to be done over the web.
You should be a little more careful in your assumptions :-)
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_______________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Falafel Software www.falafelsoft.com
_______________________________________________
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
Your reproduction of Notepad doesn't count. <g>
good, I did not drink anything while reading it ;))
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
The application is quite complex. [...]
hmmm... I don't see how you could qualify such an application
as being a proof that .Net can be "fast", or maybe you mean
you've a networked DB back-end and the network is the bottleneck?
Eric
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
hmmm... I don't see how you could qualify such an application
as being a proof that .Net can be "fast"
It's pretty easy. You run the application, and hey, it is fast! It's
written in .NET. Quod erat demonstrandum.
Quote
or maybe you mean you've a networked DB back-end and the network is the bottleneck?
There are no perceived bottlenecks. If there was to be one, I'd do
exactly the same things as I'd in a native app to find it. .NET
performance is just not an issue.
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_______________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Falafel Software www.falafelsoft.com
_______________________________________________
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
It's pretty easy. You run the application, and hey, it is fast! It's
written in .NET. Quod erat demonstrandum.
I guess we have a major impedance match here about what "fast"
software is, this kind of applications has been running for decades
on machines with a lot less capabilities, thus using it as an example
of "fast" is rather... surprising to say the least.
To get that kind of app to run sluggishly requires an extraordinary
amount of waste nowadays, even with hundreds of clients.
Eric
 

Re: Take a deep breath...

Quote
It's pretty easy. You run the application, and hey, it is fast! It's
written in .NET. Quod erat demonstrandum.
hmm, how big/popular is the hotel? how many reservation requests you get per second
in average/peak? - you can use fraction numbers if needed.