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Globalization, free market, and programmers in India


2003-07-15 09:16:32 AM
delphi1
Interesting article.
But what's your point? If you subscribe to a free-market / globalization
philosophy, this is all well and good - economically efficient. Products get
made cheaper, consumers buy them cheaper, no-one loses.
Is your point that the free-market / globalization philosophy isn't right,
that in fact there is a built up technology infrastructure in the US and
when work gets allocated offshore that this institutional infrastructure
atrophies?
Or is your point simply that when the negative effects of this philosophy
apply to jobs in the USA rather than some other country, it is a bad thing?
The US is wholly supportive of this globalization/free trade agenda, with
deals with Canada and Mexico. But at the same time it is hugely protective
of its interests. Free farming trade with Australia is never going to happen
because US farmers really don't want the competition and have some political
clout. Free trade is good, it seems, as long as it is in Americas interests.
Lauchlan M.
 
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

Lauchlan M writes:
Quote
Interesting article.

But what's your point? If you subscribe to a free-market / globalization
philosophy, this is all well and good - economically efficient. Products get
made cheaper, consumers buy them cheaper, no-one loses.
Consumer don't get everthing cheaper. Corporations get things
cheaper. Many of these ventures to take advantage of overseas labor
cost are merely to increase the bottom line by cutting costs, avoiding
US labor problems but still keeping the prices high. How much Borland
work is farmed out to India and what are the cost saving to us
consumers? Considering Borlands pricing, I'd say none.
Quote
Is your point that the free-market / globalization philosophy isn't right,
that in fact there is a built up technology infrastructure in the US and
when work gets allocated offshore that this institutional infrastructure
atrophies?
Possibly. Look at steel. If we get into a many years long war where
we have to build ships to transport men and materials, where will we
get the steel? From China who will most likely be the foe?
Quote
Or is your point simply that when the negative effects of this philosophy
apply to jobs in the USA rather than some other country, it is a bad thing?

The US is wholly supportive of this globalization/free trade agenda, with
deals with Canada and Mexico. But at the same time it is hugely protective
of its interests. Free farming trade with Australia is never going to happen
because US farmers really don't want the competition and have some political
clout. Free trade is good, it seems, as long as it is in Americas interests.
Free trade is good as long as it is in everyones interest, not just
corporations but folks who produce goods and services. It is not good
when US programmers are put out of work by Indian programmers. What
should the US programmers do? Re-train to make shoes out of old tires?
If someone is going to make shoes out of old tires, I'd rather it
be Indian programmers than American programmers.
But what will be the long term effects of us being weakened? Less
military power? It was our military power that kept the EuroCommies in
check until they folded. It is US military power that had kept the
"free world" free. This is all dependant on a a superior economic
system and the technology it supports.
But what about China? We are enriching them technologically and
providing the funds for them to sustain development, particularly in
the military areas. Is it right that we enrich the chinese
militarists so WalMart can increase their profits? That is waht
globalization is, the corporations ow no alliegence to their country
or origin. A capitalist will sell you the bullt to kill him.
Quote
Lauchlan M.


 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

It is appropriate. Off-Topic is for meaningless dribble. This is not
meaningless dribble. And by the way, who are you to tell anyone to
take anything anywhere?
Captain Jake writes:
Quote
Take this discussion to off-topic please. It is not appropriate here.

 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

In borland.public.delphi.non-technical, liberte <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
writes <3f136bdd$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>...
Quote
It is appropriate. Off-Topic is for meaningless dribble. This is not
meaningless dribble.
Wrong on all three counts. This newsgroup is for talking about things of
interest to Delphi programmers, almost all of whom are not Americans and not
only have no use for jingoistic xenophobia but find it quite repulsive, as
does any rational person.
--
***Posted by Jake's Custom Newsgroup Reader***
Posted using Jake's Super Newsreader 0.9.2.1017
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

In borland.public.delphi.non-technical, liberte <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
writes <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>...
Quote
If someone is going to make shoes out of old tires, I'd rather it
be Indian programmers than American programmers.
I'd rather it be the bigots, jingoists and xenophobes.
--
***Posted by Jake's Custom Newsgroup Reader***
Posted using Jake's Super Newsreader 0.9.2.1017
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

On 14-Jul-03, Captain Jake said:
Quote
I'd rather it be the bigots, jingoists and xenophobes.
I'd rather you *both* take it to b.p.o-t -- or just drop it.
--
Bill
--------
Since the 14th Amendment requires all people to be treated the same, why should what one group wants be enacted into law to over-ride what other people want? -- Thomas Sowell
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

"Captain Jake" <johnjac76[nospam]@comcast.net>wrote in news:3f136a78$1
@newsgroups.borland.com:
Quote
Take this discussion to off-topic please. It is not appropriate here.

Huh? Why? The topic involves programmers, which I think includes users of
Delphi, and it is non-technical. It is certainly more on topic than a
thread about overloading operators. I think there is an object pascal group
for that.
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

Agreed
"Captain Jake" <johnjac76[nospam]@comcast.net>writes
Quote
In borland.public.delphi.non-technical, liberte
<XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
writes <3f136bdd$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>...
>It is appropriate. Off-Topic is for meaningless dribble. This is not
>meaningless dribble.

Wrong on all three counts. This newsgroup is for talking about things of
interest to Delphi programmers, almost all of whom are not Americans and
not
only have no use for jingoistic xenophobia but find it quite repulsive, as
does any rational person.

--
***Posted by Jake's Custom Newsgroup Reader***

Posted using Jake's Super Newsreader 0.9.2.1017

 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

liberte writes:
Quote
It is appropriate. Off-Topic is for meaningless dribble. This is not
meaningless dribble. And by the way, who are you to tell anyone to
take anything anywhere?
I'm not sure whether the thread *started* appropriately or not, but even if
so it has drifted off topic and that is where it should be. Posts here are
still supposed to be related to Delphi. Speaking of globalization,
free-trade agreements, and agriculture are too far removed from Delphi. So
please move it.
Follow-up to off-topic set...
--
Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com)
Powered by Delphi and IB: www.logicfundamentals.com/RadBooks.html
"Democracy, without that guarantee of liberty, is merely a method of
selecting tyrants." - Alan Nitikman
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

Quote
>Products get made cheaper, consumers buy them cheaper, no-one loses.

"Products made cheaper" doesn't necessarily mean "cheaper products".
If I outsource development is because I first want higer gains, not
because
I want to make my product cheaper. What make product cheaper are other
things.
True.
But the mindset advocating free trade and globalisation would also subscribe
to an efficient markets hypothesis (or to a normative policy of abolishing
institutional constraints that get in the way of free market liberalisation)
and would argue that competition would ensure that these efficiency gains
get passed on to custoemrs as lower costs.
Personally I don't think free market liberalisation is an unqualified good
thing. In Australia, for example, we had a highly protected (and by global
standards, inefficient) local car manufacturing industry. By free market
logic, this was a silly industry for us to be in, and should have (and did)
go under. On the other hand, it facilitated the development of skills and
infrastructure in the manufacturing sector which became vital to the
development and flourishing of other high-tech industries. Retrospectively
it was a great industry for us to have been protecting and nurturing.
The problem with the free market agenda is that it is based on highly
unrealistic neo-classical economic assumptions, such as rational maximising
agents, unrealistic information assumptions, and lack of attention to
institutional realities.
But that is a story for another time.
Lauchlan M
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

"Lauchlan M" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
The standards for off or on topic are fairly arbitrary.
It largely boils down to the interest team-B members have in the topic.
<g>.
I have seen extended discussions about Microsoft, market mentalities,
Java,
open source, etc carrying on in here and deemed on-topic and far more
relevant issues to Delphi development deemed off-topic.
Which have all been redirected :-)
Lauchlan, this is really off-topic here.
We're on borrowed hard disk space <G>
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

"Lauchlan M" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Occasionally for my PhD I end up reading older literature eg perspectives
(academic and business perspectives) from the 1930's. I don't think it was
as clear cut about companies primarily making money then - companies had
social and societal obligations also. For example, Thomas Watson Jr's "A
business and its beliefs" was all about businesses core values, not just
making money. From many of these perspectives, making money and doing good
(scial) work are inextricably intertwined.
I see where you're coming from.
Well Lauchlan, this ain't 1930s anymore. Some values remained the same,
others just changed
or greed/ambition just changes people.
For instance, how many people used to get college free in the 1930's US
because they were good
basketball players? <G>
Quote
I think there is a case that companies are becoming more mercenary and
profit oriented; whether that is a good or a bad thing or why it happened
is
again a question for another time.
I agree but it is just a sign of modern times in which medias are having a
very dis-educative power
on masses. Anyhow, Noem Chomsky has some interesting points of view on some
of these issues ;-)
--
Regards,
Alessandro Federici
RemObjects Software, Inc.
www.remobjects.com
Best Communications Tool In 2003 Delphi Informant Readers Choice Awards
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

liberte writes:
Quote
It is appropriate. Off-Topic is for meaningless dribble. This is not
meaningless dribble.
Ok, not meaningless, just dribble.
Quote
And by the way, who are you to tell anyone to
take anything anywhere?
It's a free market.
Don
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

Quote
I agree but it is just a sign of modern times in which medias are having a
very dis-educative power
on masses. Anyhow, Noem Chomsky has some interesting points of view on
some
of these issues ;-)
Indeed. As does Michael Moore!
Lauchlan M
 

Re:Globalization, free market, and programmers in India

Please take this discussion to off-topic. Further replies in this
thread will be cancelled.
Thank you,
-Craig