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Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.


2007-04-19 05:43:13 PM
delphi25
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:31:01 +0100, IanH <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
David Farrell-Garcia writes:
>IanH writes:
>... one of the issues that came up
>several times was not issues with software activation, but rather
>accountabilty for valid software licenses which activation seems to
>guarantee.

... purchasers want to know that the company is
operating legally in every aspect: only using legitimate software is
part of this. Purchase records + support contracts were sufficient for
us to demonstrate this, but I take your point about Activation helping
in this regard.
David,
I also take your point that Activation could be used as an
additional/alternative method of confirming that the currently-installed
software is legitimate *now*
But having a legitimate licence to a piece of software is not a lot of use
unless you can install and run that licensed software on whichever machine
is most suitable, at whatever point in the future it becomes necessary.
At the time (mid 90's when fast, reliable 'net access wasn't widely
available) the people doing due-diligence on us were satisfied with seeing
the physical media and installation keys. But in no positive way does
activation help this part of the process (at least for the developer
trying to get the maximum value for his development efforts - and isn't
this supposed to be the place "where developers matter"?)
And these due-diligence types are highly-paid (and pretty smart)
professionals. I'd guess that by now they have heard of activation and
recognised its implications for their line of business.
--
Paul Scott
Information Management Systems
Macclesfield, UK.
 
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

"IanH" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Paul Scott writes:

>And these due-diligence types are highly-paid (and pretty smart)
>professionals. I'd guess that by now they have heard of
>activation and recognised its implications for their line of
>business.

Ours certainly were/did. I don't know if the "VM defence" will be
sufficient to combat all the uncertainty, but it just might - what do
you think?

It is not necessary to resort to VMs for long-term operation of Delphi. For
BDS 2006 at least, as long as you don't lose your installation media, your
licence files and don't forget what your Windows user account name is, you
should be able to continue to use Delphi on an operating system it was
designed to run on for as long as you like - with or without the existence
of CodeGear and its servers.
CodeGear's activation servers do not work like Microsoft's (yet!). They are
just a convenient way to deliver the user-account specific licensing
information to the customer. They are not a perpetual watchdog.
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

Thanks.
What was their specific comment on activation and what did they need to
accept it?
If they were OK with Microsoft's activation, did they say that it was
because of Microsoft's perceived stability? I see people speculating
about this, but I am curious what the lawyers actually have to say.
Not trick questions. Remember, I am facing a similar situation myself.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:49:57 +0100, IanH <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
>And these due-diligence types are highly-paid (and pretty smart)
>professionals. I'd guess that by now they have heard of
>activation and recognised its implications for their line of
>business.

Ours certainly were/did. I don't know if the "VM defence" will be
sufficient to combat all the uncertainty, but it just might - what do
you think?
Ian,
*As a developer*, the investigation of VM's and/or licence+registry
backups would be part of any sensible disaster-planning process in order
to keep a company's (internal) systems running.
But if I was a director trying to sell a company/product, I wouldn't be
happy to rely on any "VM defence" - even without the possibility that
future changes to the host O/S may affect the environment seen by the
hosted system.
Even backing up licence files/registry keys - in the absence of any
definitive statement from CodeGear stating (a) that this is legal and (b)
exactly what should be backed up/restored - could be problematic.
At what point does "avoidance" (of the activation process) turn into
"evasion" ? - especially in this era of the DMCA and Computer Misuse Act.
But actually, when undergoing due-diligence, the question is not "whether
this works", nor even "whether this is legal", it is more "whether this
gives the prospective purchaser any reason to withold some/all of the
money which I'd much rather he gave to me"
The attitude of "our" accountants/lawyers seemed to be "anything which is
not expressly and unambiguously certified as legitimate will be used in
evidence against you" - ie used to increase the level of warranties
demanded and/or reduce the value paid ("because of the possible
contingency costs")
And, if I was looking to buy a company, that is exactly the attitude which
I would take. (Since to do anything less would be to disregard my
fiduciary responsibilities to *my* shareholders)
--
Paul Scott
Information Management Systems
Macclesfield, UK.
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

Chris Burrows writes:
Quote
"IanH" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:46273b45$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>Paul Scott writes:
>
>>And these due-diligence types are highly-paid (and pretty smart)
>>professionals. I'd guess that by now they have heard of
>>activation and recognised its implications for their line of
>>business.
>
>Ours certainly were/did. I don't know if the "VM defence" will be
>sufficient to combat all the uncertainty, but it just might - what
>do you think?
>

It is not necessary to resort to VMs for long-term operation of
Delphi. For BDS 2006 at least, as long as you don't lose your
installation media, your licence files and don't forget what your
Windows user account name is, you should be able to continue to use
Delphi on an operating system it was designed to run on for as long
as you like - with or without the existence of CodeGear and its
servers.

CodeGear's activation servers do not work like Microsoft's (yet!).
They are just a convenient way to deliver the user-account specific
licensing information to the customer. They are not a perpetual
watchdog.
I've been reading about your investigation of this with interest, but
I've read far too many complaints about the activation process failing
to be happy with an unofficial workaround. I like the idea of the VM
providing a nice encapsulated environment that remains unaffected by,
for example, installing a new product.
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

Paul Scott writes:
Quote
*As a developer*, the investigation of VM's and/or licence+registry
backups would be part of any sensible disaster-planning process in
order to keep a company's (internal) systems running.
Agreed.
Quote
But if I was a director trying to sell a company/product, I wouldn't
be happy to rely on any "VM defence" - even without the possibility
that future changes to the host O/S may affect the environment seen
by the hosted system.
Surely this is only the same as preserving old hardware for no-longer
available platforms?
Quote
Even backing up licence files/registry keys - in the absence of any
definitive statement from CodeGear stating (a) that this is legal and
(b) exactly what should be backed up/restored - could be problematic.

At what point does "avoidance" (of the activation process) turn into
"evasion" ? - especially in this era of the DMCA and Computer Misuse
Act.

I think that having the correct licenses would prevent any action
succeeding, but that is not really the point, is it?
Quote
But actually, when undergoing due-diligence, the question is not
"whether this works", nor even "whether this is legal", it is more
"whether this gives the prospective purchaser any reason to withold
some/all of the money which I'd much rather he gave to me"
Exactly. I can see that you have the T-shirt as well ;-)
Quote
The attitude of "our" accountants/lawyers seemed to be "anything
which is not expressly and unambiguously certified as legitimate
will be used in evidence against you" - ie used to increase the
level of warranties demanded and/or reduce the value paid ("because
of the possible contingency costs")
Your "own side" is primarily interested in covering it is own a***, not
looking out for your best interests.
Quote
And, if I was looking to buy a company, that is exactly the attitude
which I'd take. (Since to do anything less would be to disregard
my fiduciary responsibilities to my shareholders)
Why won't CodeGear provide an EOL plan that we can use?
Cheers,
Ian
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:19:03 +0100, IanH <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
Exactly. I can see that you have the T-shirt as well ;-)
Well I did used to have one, but those due diligence lawyers took the
shirt off my back !
--
Paul Scott
Information Management Systems
Macclesfield, UK.
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

Paul Scott writes:
Quote
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 15:19:03 +0100, IanH <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:

>Exactly. I can see that you have the T-shirt as well ;-)

Well I did used to have one, but those due diligence lawyers took the
shirt off my back !
Lawyers are cheap, aren't they ;-)
What an enjoyable process: sitting round for hours while 2 sets of
expensive lawyers drone on and on in petty disagreements, while
secretaries mark up and then retype the documentation. A PC, a
projector and somebody who could type would have halved the bill for
both sides - but when you are paid by the hour, why should you worry?
At the conclusion of our deal our lawyers cracked open a decent bottle
of champagne. Were they celebrating our excellent deal, or their
excellent fee?
A few months later we were invited to a champage reception to celebrate
the opening of their new building. I didn't go....
Ian
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

IanH writes:
Quote
Why won't CodeGear provide an EOL plan that we can use?
Do you know of any other companies that offer this to their customers?
I know a couple, but they aren't well known.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

Quote
I know a couple, but they aren't well known.
My company does. Also all the software
I purchase except Windows and Delphi
does not require need for multiple
activation when being reinstalled
on different computers
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

Kostya writes:
Quote
>I know a couple, but they aren't well known.

My company does. Also all the software
I purchase except Windows and Delphi
does not require need for multiple
activation when being reinstalled
on different computers
So your company's escrow agreement is more about delivering the source
code to customers if you go out of business than it is about activation.
This is also the case with the companies I know about, but I imagine it
would work just as well for activation, too.
--
Regards,
Bruce McGee
Glooscap Software
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

In article <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Bruce McGee
says...
Quote
IanH writes:

>Why won't CodeGear provide an EOL plan that we can use?

Do you know of any other companies that offer this to their customers?

I know a couple, but they aren't well known.
I think CodeGear would fall into the "not well known" category too. :)
Even among Delphi developers - I recently interviewed someone who knew
about DTG but hadn't heard of CodeGear.
!?!
--
Jolyon Smith
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

Quote
If i thought there was even a remote chance that Borland would go belly
up and leave us{*word*154} on activation issues I woudl already be gone. I
don't waste my time worrying about remote possiblities. I have far to
many real issues to deal with.
Ditto.
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

Paul Scott writes:
<snip>
Quote
Even backing up licence files/registry keys - in the absence of any
definitive statement from CodeGear stating (a) that this is legal and
(b) exactly what should be backed up/restored - could be problematic.
<snip>
This (b) is never going to happen.
That would be essentially the same as removing it altogether, which
also is never going to happen.
 

Re: Delphi 2007 - No Way. No How.

Karl schrieb:
Quote

I gather from the gist of the subjects in this forum that Delphi 2007 is
shipping (there has been little reason to hang around these groups for
the past year). Without starting another religious war, I was wondering
how many licenses have NOT been sold (or will not be sold) simply
because of the activation requirement?

Count me in that group.
I'm not a Delphi user but still on BCB5 Prof. for maintenance and
smaller projects. For the next bigger project it depends on CG if it
would be done with one of their Development platforms or not.
Count me in that group too.
Frank.