Board index » delphi » Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net


2005-01-13 12:34:35 PM
delphi49
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Michael Anonymous writes:


>Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
>
>
>>Borland has licenses to distribute the SDK, not to program on .NET,
>>AFAIK.
>>
>
>Yes, AFAYK.
>I believe they are not allowed to release the details of their
>agreement with Microsoft.
<snip>
Quote
BTW, if you don't know the licenses, then how come you can make
statements about their content?

Your right: I don't know the license agreement because I never saw it.
But I do know, based on the news report, they licensed some Microsoft
.NET technology to use ( or build ) Delphi 8. The originally reasoning
was if Borland HAD TO buy a license to make Delphi 8 work, who else
would have
to buy a license?
I'm not sure if that is a correct statement nor did I assert it was ever
true.
But you can not get a conclusion from the news report you cited.
Quote

>I think you missed my points Rudy.
>Once when I tried compiling one of my Delphi 5 programs in Delphi for
>.NET I couldn't get it to compile because I use a lot of pointers and
>memory allocations.


Oh, you may have had to change it sightly, e.g. add a few "unsafe"
modifiers and such. I hope you didn't expect such code to work without
any modification.

I said I used a lot of pointers and memory allocations.
I didn't write "I s(l)ightly use pointers and memory allocations."
Adding a few keywords here and there makes me as a programmer do more
just to do what I did before easily. During that process, my freedoms
to use pointers and memory allocations the way I used them before goes away.
Quote

>Also, I search and search and couldn't find any
>tutorials on allocating and managing memory in Microsoft .NET.


No, .NET will do that for you. To allocate memory, you can use arrays,
and to access bits and bytes, use the Marshal and interop classes.

Basically, the standard way in pascal, over the years,
was to use GetMem or another function to allocate memory.
I could they use the pointer as I see fit.
Microsoft and Borland's current .NET technology takes away my freedom to
use pointers and memory allocations the way I have been doing it for 9
years now.
Therefore, that is why I said originally Microsoft .NET ( I blame it on
Microsoft ) strives to take away my programming freedoms.
Apparently, if Microsoft .NET technology becomes the standard on
Windows, I will no longer able to use pointers and memory allocations
freely - like I did in Delphi 5.
I hope that doesn't happen.
 
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Lord Crc writes:


>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:41 -0700, Michael Anonymous
><XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
>
>
>>+++ eliminate programming with pointers
>>( I love pointers as much as I love html links! )
>
>You can program with pointers as much as you like in .Net


Indeed. But you must specify "unsafe" and such.

Good. I am glad we cleared that up.
Now can I do this same program in Delphi for .NET:
program Project1;
{$APPTYPE CONSOLE}
uses SysUtils;
Type
TByteArray = packed array[0..0] of byte;
pTByteArray = ^TByteArray;
var
p : pointer;
pBA : pTByteArray;
i : integer;
begin
GetMem (p, High(Byte) ); //this is just an example of
// the memory coming from another function
pBA := p; // set the byte array pointer.
for i := 0 to High(Byte) do
begin
pBA^[i] := i;
WriteLn ( IntToStr ( pBA^[i] ));
end;
readln;
end.
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Anders Isaksson writes:
Quote
>+++ the ability to compile into native code without using a MS compiler


What's your problem with using an MS compiler (JITter)? Assuming it
creates correct, reasonably efficient native code, of course.

The problem is I don't want to be forced into using a MS compiler.
I want to be able to select a compiler from a variety of organizations
and individuals.
Quote

>+++ eliminate programming with pointers
>( I love pointers as much as I love html links! )


Pointers are just a tool to get the work done. No big deal learning and
using another tool.

There is a big deal if you have many megabytes worth of code that uses
pointers and memory routines.
Quote

>+++ eliminate dynamic memory management.


I don't think it does.

Can I free 10 bytes I allocated ten minutes ago?
<snip>
Quote
>+++ GC has the great potential to be a performance hog.


Have you experienced this?

That statement was based on the statements of other people in the
newsgroup. I personally do not run a lot of Microsoft .NET programs.
Also, I do not develop Microsoft NET programs yet.
I have also read posts about programs written in Delphi 8.
Quote

>+++ Microsoft's attempt to control all development on Windows.


Business sense.

But, in my opinion, not in the public's interest. ;-)
Quote

>You have to use their tools, whether you like it or not, to create
>even the simplest applications.


No.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't all code go through their JIT compiler?
Therefore, you have to use the JIT compiler even if you don't like it.
Quote

>+++ The ability to rationally consider other alternatives such as Win64.


But one point of .net is that *when* W64 comes, and the .net framework
gets 64 bits, your pure .net programs will also be run in 64 bits -
without you having to do anything about it!

I can see your point of view of this one.
But I'd like to compare Win64 vs Microsoft .NET for performance reasons.
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote

.NET teaches you that you can live well without pointers. It doesn't
even require a big mind shift. And if you really think you need them,
you can still have them.

I value pointers, so I must be a different kind of programmer than you
Rudy. If your not using pointers in Win32, I am not sure you can
sympathize with my plight.
Quote

>>You have to use their tools, whether you like it or not, to create
>>even the simplest applications.
>
>No.


I wonder where he got that idea. After all, Delphi is not an MS tool.
Isn't the JIT compiler is written by Microsoft?
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Joanna Carter (TeamB) writes:
Quote
>+++ the ability to compile into native code without using a MS compiler


So how do you think the Delphi for .NET compiler works ? Don't forget that
*all* .NET code eventually is compiled into native code; the difference is
that a JIT compiler is used to convert the IL only as and when required.

I was under the impression that the JIT compiler was created and
maintain by Microsoft.
Quote

>+++ eliminate programming with pointers
>( I love pointers as much as I love html links! )


Pointersq are so 'yesterday', Delphi has not *required* explicit pointers
for quite some time, it is only luddite programmers who insist on using them
:-) And it is pointers that allow virus writers to do their thing with
impunity.

I like yesterday and tomorrow.
I have serious reasons why I use pointers.
Most of my programming benefits when
I allocate and maintain memory myself.
I don't write viruses so I can not help you there. ;-)
Quote

>+++ eliminate dynamic memory management.


I thought memory was allocated with the 'new' operator, Isn't that dynamic ?

Can one free it as well?
Quote

>+++ forcing me to use a garbage collector when I don't want to use one.


eliminating those hard to track down memory leaks :-)

Also eliminating the freedom to deallocate memory.
Besides, I don't usually have hard time tracking down memory leaks.
Quote

>+++ GC has the great potential to be a performance hog.


Not necessarily

This point remains to be proven.
Quote

>+++ Microsoft's attempt to control all development on Windows.
>( You have to use their tools, whether you like it or not, to create
>even the simplest applications. Borland had purchase Licenses to
>develop for .NET, remember? Therefore, GNU, if they wrote a compiler,
>would have to do the same?)


So, if I have to use M$ tools, how come I can use Delphi ?

I've already pointed out the JIT compiler.
Quote

>+++ The ability to rationally consider other alternatives such as Win64.
>All hype is currently on Microsoft .NET with little information
>about Win64 and native exes.


'Native' exes have given us unsafe code; something which .NET aims to fix.
Programming in .NET is platform size agnostic; your apps will run on 64-bit
platforms without any code changes or conditionals, they will simply run
better on & 64-bit platform if they already use 64-bit types.

Joanna
I've been using "Unsafe code" for years,
I like it because it is very useful.
( That game I played last night is unsafe!!! )
I haven't gotten a virus in 8 years.
I also haven't experience any hackers.
I use pointers and produce good results.
So I am unfamiliar with the negative word unsafe in "unsafe code";
I don't need Microsoft .NET to fix the "problem".
Running a program on a 64-bit platform is good.
But I can get my program to work fairly easily if
I have a good native 64-bit Delphi compiler.
I like native exes because up to this point in time they perform
superiorly to Microsoft .NET applications - based on other peoples' posts.
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:41 -0700, Michael Anonymous
<XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
+++ eliminate programming with pointers
( I love pointers as much as I love html links! )
You can program with pointers as much as you like in .Net
- Asbjørn
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Michael Anonymous writes:
Quote
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:

>Borland has licenses to distribute the SDK, not to program on .NET,
>AFAIK.
>
Yes, AFAYK.
I believe they are not allowed to release the details of their
agreement with Microsoft.
And IIRC that is what they have said. No one needs a license to program
on .NET, or to release programs for .NET, so why should Borland?
news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-982257.html
"Borland expects to be the first company to license Microsoft's .Net
Framework Software Development Kit (SDK) and incorporate it into a
product. The .Net Framework SDK is a set of tools designed to make it
quicker for programmers to write and run .Net applications on
Microsoft's Windows operating system."
Everyone can get the SDK for free, but you are not allowed to
redistribute it. Borland was the first.
BTW, if you don't know the licenses, then how come you can make
statements about their content?
Quote
I think you missed my points Rudy.
Once when I tried compiling one of my Delphi 5 programs in Delphi for
.NET I couldn't get it to compile because I use a lot of pointers and
memory allocations.
Oh, you may have had to change it sightly, e.g. add a few "unsafe"
modifiers and such. I hope you didn't expect such code to work without
any modification.
Quote
Also, I search and search and couldn't find any
tutorials on allocating and managing memory in Microsoft .NET.
No, .NET will do that for you. To allocate memory, you can use arrays,
and to access bits and bytes, use the Marshal and interop classes.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] rvelthuis.bei.t-online.de
"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any
man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Lord Crc writes:
Quote
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:41 -0700, Michael Anonymous
<XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:

>+++ eliminate programming with pointers
>( I love pointers as much as I love html links! )

You can program with pointers as much as you like in .Net
Indeed. But you must specify "unsafe" and such.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] rvelthuis.bei.t-online.de
"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder,
but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
- Bjarne Stroustrup
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

David Clegg writes:
Quote
Maxwell Smart writes:


>It's so refreshing to know that I am not the only one with an utter
>hatred for dot garbage.


Is this hatred of .NET based on any actual experience developing apps
to target it? And if so, what exactly did you find you hated about it?

No, it is based on rational thinking. ;-)
All joking aside, what I hate about .NET is that it seeming
strives to take away certain programming freedoms such as:
+++ the ability to compile into native code without using a MS compiler
+++ eliminate programming with pointers
( I love pointers as much as I love html links! )
+++ eliminate dynamic memory management.
+++ forcing me to use a garbage collector when I don't want to use one.
+++ GC has the great potential to be a performance hog.
+++ Microsoft's attempt to control all development on Windows.
( You have to use their tools, whether you like it or not, to create
even the simplest applications. Borland had purchase Licenses to
develop for .NET, remember? Therefore, GNU, if they wrote a compiler,
would have to do the same?)
+++ The ability to rationally consider other alternatives such as Win64.
All hype is currently on Microsoft .NET with little information
about Win64 and native exes.
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Nick Hodges [TeamB] writes:
Quote
David Clegg writes:


>What can I say, I am a nice guy. When I see someone missing out on the
>fun, I like to try and lend a helping hand. :-)


I understand, but some people have fun in different ways, like hating
.Net! ;-)

Or poking fun at the people who do apparently. ;-)
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:41 -0700, Michael Anonymous
<XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
All joking aside, what I hate about .NET is that it seeming
strives to take away certain programming freedoms such as:

+++ the ability to compile into native code without using a MS compiler
What's your problem with using an MS compiler (JITter)? Assuming it
creates correct, reasonably efficient native code, of course.
Quote
+++ eliminate programming with pointers
( I love pointers as much as I love html links! )
Pointers are just a tool to get the work done. No big deal learning and
using another tool.
Quote
+++ eliminate dynamic memory management.
I don't think it does.
Quote
+++ forcing me to use a garbage collector when I don't want to use one.
That one is easy: Don't produce any garbage :-)
But yes, the undeterministic way the GC runs may be a problem in some
applications. You probably shouldn't use .net for them (arguably, you
shouldn't use Windows at all for them).
Quote
+++ GC has the great potential to be a performance hog.
Have you experienced this?
Quote
+++ Microsoft's attempt to control all development on Windows.
Business sense.
Quote
You have to use their tools, whether you like it or not, to create
even the simplest applications.
No.
Quote
+++ The ability to rationally consider other alternatives such as Win64.
But one point of .net is that *when* W64 comes, and the .net framework
gets 64 bits, your pure .net programs will also be run in 64 bits -
without you having to do anything about it!
--
Anders Isaksson, Sweden
BlockCAD: w1.161.telia.com/~u16122508/proglego.htm
Gallery: w1.161.telia.com/~u16122508/gallery/index.htm
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

"Michael Anonymous" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>a écrit dans le message de news:
41e5741a$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
All joking aside, what I hate about .NET is that it seeming
strives to take away certain programming freedoms such as:

+++ the ability to compile into native code without using a MS compiler
So how do you think the Delphi for .NET compiler works ? Don't forget that
*all* .NET code eventually is compiled into native code; the difference is
that a JIT compiler is used to convert the IL only as and when required.
Quote
+++ eliminate programming with pointers
( I love pointers as much as I love html links! )
Pointersq are so 'yesterday', Delphi has not *required* explicit pointers
for quite some time, it is only luddite programmers who insist on using them
:-) And it is pointers that allow virus writers to do their thing with
impunity.
Quote
+++ eliminate dynamic memory management.
I thought memory was allocated with the 'new' operator, Isn't that dynamic ?
Quote
+++ forcing me to use a garbage collector when I don't want to use one.
eliminating those hard to track down memory leaks :-)
Quote
+++ GC has the great potential to be a performance hog.
Not necessarily
Quote
+++ Microsoft's attempt to control all development on Windows.
( You have to use their tools, whether you like it or not, to create
even the simplest applications. Borland had purchase Licenses to
develop for .NET, remember? Therefore, GNU, if they wrote a compiler,
would have to do the same?)
So, if I have to use M$ tools, how come I can use Delphi ?
Quote
+++ The ability to rationally consider other alternatives such as Win64.
All hype is currently on Microsoft .NET with little information
about Win64 and native exes.
'Native' exes have given us unsafe code; something which .NET aims to fix.
Programming in .NET is platform size agnostic; your apps will run on 64-bit
platforms without any code changes or conditionals, they will simply run
better on & 64-bit platform if they already use 64-bit types.
Joanna
Consultant Software Engineer
TeamBUG support for UK-BUG
TeamMM support for ModelMaker
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Anders Isaksson writes:
Quote
>+++ eliminate programming with pointers
>( I love pointers as much as I love html links! )

Pointers are just a tool to get the work done. No big deal learning
and using another tool.
.NET teaches you that you can live well without pointers. It doesn't
even require a big mind shift. And if you really think you need them,
you can still have them.
Quote
>You have to use their tools, whether you like it or not, to create
>even the simplest applications.

No.
I wonder where he got that idea. After all, Delphi is not an MS tool.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] rvelthuis.bei.t-online.de
"God is love, but get it in writing." -- Gypsy Rose Lee.
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Will DeWitt Jr. writes:
Quote
>Until a business case can be made for it.

It's too bad you (and Borland) are too short sighted to see the
business case.
Perhaps they aren't. Perhaps they see that there isn't one yet.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] rvelthuis.bei.t-online.de
"Total absence of humor renders life impossible."
-- Colette (1873-1954), Chance Acquaintances, 1952
 

Re: Separate releases: Delphi 10 Win32 / Delphi 10 .Net

Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Perhaps they aren't. Perhaps they see that there isn't one yet.
Then they aren't seeing correctly.
Will
--
Want a 64-bit Delphi compiler for AMD64 / IA-32e? Vote here--
qc.borland.com/wc/wc.exe/details