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Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists


2004-07-04 08:15:22 AM
delphi130
"DRS" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
I noticed. I also noticed that this thread is about hobbyists. The slide
from hobbyist to student happens every time this topic is recycled even
though there is no necessary link between the two.
I would estimate that at least 30 % of hobbyists would be eligible
for student prices. ( high school, uni, tafe etc )
 
 

Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

Quote
I noticed. I also noticed that this thread is about hobbyists. The
slide
from hobbyist to student happens every time this topic is recycled even
though there is no necessary link between the two.
Fair enough, but it might have been more clear to direct that impression
to the source of the student comment, not to a reply regarding students.
Kevin
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Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

"BOB-O-MATIC" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Borland's products are overpriced and its revenues are lower as a result.
There is one flaw in your argument. If you look at Borland's financial
statements you see that profit is not lower this last quarter than a year
ago.
www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml
"Revenues for the first quarter were $72.9 million, and GAAP net income
was $713,000, or $0.01 per diluted share. This compares to $74.0 million in
revenue and a GAAP net loss of $5.7 million, or $(0.07) per diluted share,
reported in the fourth quarter of 2003, and to $74.4 million in revenue and
a GAAP net loss of $17.7 million, or $(0.22) per diluted shared, reported in
the first quarter of 2003."
--
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Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

Quote
economics of purchase price and licensing terms however are concrete
enough that it is pretty open and shut which one is more friendly to
startups and beginning developers (hint: it is not Borland,
unfortunately).
Prices may be a reality, but it is only your opinion that price and
licensing terms make for an open and shut case which product is more
startup and beginner friendly. Price and licensing terms are only two
factors amoung many one should consider in any purchase one makes,
software or otherwise. You can buy a really cheap car with great terms,
but how did it do in the crash test? And so on. The accumulation of all
factors, pro and con, should be determined and examined as a whole before
one makes a purchase, not just price alone which may, or may not, be a
misguided indicator of product utility.
Kevin
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Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

K. Sallee writes:
Quote
The costs of develoment tools is a minor cost of business. I pay
more for office related expenses each year than I do for software to
run the business.
It's not a minor cost for hobbyists, and it is definitely not a minor
cost when you can get 4 development tools for the same price as *1* of
Borlands (see: Microsoft Visual Studio 2003 vs. Borland Delphi
Professional).
Will
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Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

John Herbster writes:
Quote
I was using Fortran compilers on DG machines.
(DG Fortran compiler cost about $600/year in 1980 as I recall.)
Modulo-2
Is that something different from Modula-2?
Don
 

Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

Jean-Francois Nifenecker writes:
Quote
>I have heard of US university students spending $30K per
>year (in 2003). What do they spend their money on?

What do they get their money from?
Overdrafts and credit cards :(
 

Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

Quote
that must mean
their cost of creating something like Delphi is insignificant?
that, of course, I did not say, but
as it seems to me, you say that creating API wrappers (part of foundation of VCL) is
much more difficult than writing, say, TurboVision from the scratch. (Borland had, of course,
Turbo Power's Turbo/Object Professional system as example, but they choosed other way)
Quote
I am not sure what is your point of your post.
my point is that in 80s Borland had (and did) no less work than nowadays.
 

Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

Will DeWitt Jr. writes:
Quote
>I can be so far more productive with Delphi Pascal than I ever can
>be with C++, the few more hundred dollors for Delphi 7 Pro retail
>is not even an effective economic argument when you look at the
>bottom line of total production costs using Delphi versus C++.

That's a matter of opinion.
It is, but I'd say that Kevin's opinion on his own productivity is
fairly authoritative. AFAICS, he spoke about what worked for him, not
the world in general.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] ?Vertex Systems Corp. ?Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
 

Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

"Will DeWitt Jr." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
K. Sallee writes:
>I can be so far more productive with Delphi Pascal than I ever can be
>with C++, the few more hundred dollors for Delphi 7 Pro retail is not
>even an effective economic argument when you look at the bottom line
>of total production costs using Delphi versus C++.

That's a matter of opinion. The prices and licenses for each, however,
are a matter of fact. "Productivity" is far too subjective to be worth
debating here, nobodies going to change anybodies mind on that. The
economics of purchase price and licensing terms however are concrete
enough that it is pretty open and shut which one is more friendly to
startups and beginning developers (hint: it is not Borland,
unfortunately).
NOOOOOO!!!!! The economics of purchasing a dev tool is nothing without
taking account of productivity. Absolutely nothing.
So if you reject the consideration of productivity, you reject a necessary
condition for you to make an intelligent economic decision. The fact that
productivity is a subjective thing simply means that most of the basis for
an intelligent decision is not your call, or my call, but that solely of the
person making the choice.
Also, Kevin was discussing total production costs, not just startup costs.
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Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

Quote
NOOOOOO!!!!! The economics of purchasing a dev tool is nothing without
taking account of productivity. Absolutely nothing.
Not if you have a low budget constraint. I don't purchase Borland
Enterprise, even they I probably should, because I feel I can not afford that
much money.
Oliver Townshend
 

Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

Andrew Rybenkov writes:
Quote
my point is that in 80s Borland had (and did) no less work than
nowadays.
Oh for sure. And also wages, office supplies/maintenance, building
leases are all the same price as well. Plus managing a website and all
the networking infrastructure costs exactly the same as the 80s as well.
Yeah, that is realistic.
--
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Alpha 2.6.1 Now Available (2 July 2004)
 

Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

Quote
It's not a minor cost for hobbyists, and it is definitely not a minor
cost when you can get 4 development tools for the same price as *1* of
Borlands (see: Microsoft Visual Studio 2003 vs. Borland Delphi
Professional).
I understand your point.
I use to do model railroading. The cost of one brass Mikado steam
locamotive can easily cost you $500. Hobbies are not cheap, especially if
you want the best.
Cheers,
Kevin
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Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

"K. Sallee" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
Quote
I use to do model railroading.
Why did you quit?
--
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Re: Australian prices discourage hobbyists

K. Sallee writes:
Quote
I use to do model railroading. The cost of one brass Mikado steam
locamotive can easily cost you $500. Hobbies are not cheap,
especially if you want the best.
This model airplane has $24000 worth of engines (that price is just
for the engines -- the actual model probably cost much more to build):
www.mcgirt.net/RC/VIDEOS/Giant_B52/
Followups set.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] ?Vertex Systems Corp. ?Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Everything You Need to Know About InterBase Character Sets:
blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/articles/403.aspx