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My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue


2003-11-30 02:12:10 PM
delphi227
I think all informed, non-biased people here agree that "Delphi is dead" in the
sense that Borland has stopped developing the Win32 version many years ago.
But Delphi's user base is so huge (especially in countries where Borland refuses
to sell, like Russia), that it is creating it is own gravity.
And MS will never s{*word*99} the Win32 API either.
So Delphi (not the .net version) remains the best choice for Windows development
for many years to come.
 
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

MS wont s{*word*99} the Win32 API for a long time, but many new features of
windows will be .NET only. I think Win32 will be officially 'depreciated' in
the next major version of windows. I agree many people will use Delphi32 for
a good few years yet as their primary dev tool but it is only a matter of
time before people convert to .NET.
Quote
I think all informed, non-biased people here agree that "Delphi is dead"
in the
sense that Borland has stopped developing the Win32 version many years
ago.

But Delphi's user base is so huge (especially in countries where Borland
refuses
to sell, like Russia), that it is creating it is own gravity.

And MS will never s{*word*99} the Win32 API either.

So Delphi (not the .net version) remains the best choice for Windows
development
for many years to come.


 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

John van Nieuwkerk writes:
Quote
MS wont s{*word*99} the Win32 API for a long time, but many new features of
windows will be .NET only. I think Win32 will be officially 'depreciated' in
the next major version of windows. I agree many people will use Delphi32 for
a good few years yet as their primary dev tool but it is only a matter of
time before people convert to .NET.
And it is only a matter of time before you can take a vacation on Mars,
but I am not writing a check just yet...
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

"John van Nieuwkerk" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
MS wont s{*word*99} the Win32 API for a long time, but many new features of
windows will be .NET only.
Windows does what it should do well enough and I can do anything imaginable and
more with the standard API.
And it is just your own conjecture to assume that .net will have exclusive
Windows OS functionality that will not be available to non-.net developers. This
would be highly damaging to MS.
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

John van Nieuwkerk writes:
Quote
MS wont s{*word*99} the Win32 API for a long time, but many new features of
windows will be .NET only. I think Win32 will be officially
'depreciated' in the next major version of windows. I agree many
people will use Delphi32 for a good few years yet as their primary
dev tool but it is only a matter of time before people convert to .NET.
Very very unlikely. I just don't see them re-writing the entire
user-mode OS to cater to .NET, I just don't. Hell, the kernel mode
functions are basically wrapped by the user-mode functions, and unless
they introduce .NET into the kernel (which they definitely won't) then
you'll only see slower performance by the .NET wrappers Microsoft has
created.
In any event, baseless claims don't make the case for .NET. I wouldn't
even believe Microsoft if they said they were moving everything to
native .NET and making the Win32 API a layer above .NET. When that day
comes, when they ship an OS that does this and it is verifiable, that's
the day I will believe that.
Will
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

"Will DeWitt Jr." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Very very unlikely. I just don't see them re-writing the entire
user-mode OS to cater to .NET, I just don't.
I don't even see them fix any bugs.
Take a slider, drop it on a form and scale it nice and narrow.
When you run it, it has the wrong size.
This bug has been reported 1.5 years ago and I have an official MS rep. reply
that consisted of a lot of code that overrides stuff in the "OnCreate".
Conclusion: Either MS is desperately overburdoned or they have utter disregard
for quality, or both, because there are many more bugs that are more serious and
none of them seem to get fixed.
It doesn't look good, in any case.
I was very e{*word*277}d after I bought C# .net and started to make a simple form but
I never got the "Open file" dialog box working. It tuned out that there is a
huge bug in it that renders it unusable. Reported 2 years ago, never fixed. MS
latest .net runtime has exactly ZERO bugfixes.
And they are going to replace the OS?
ROTFLMAO
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

This situation reminds me a little of when I was programming in CA-Clipper
( A DOS development language ). Computer Associates launched a Windows
development product called CA Visual Objects. This was sold as the easiest
migration path from Clipper to Windows applications. But it wasnt very good,
especially when Delphi came out. So although more code had to be rewritten
in Delphi a lot more developers switched to Delphi because it was so much
better.
( Anybody know if people still develop in visual objects ). Also VB(Visual Basic) had many
limitations compared to Delphi.
Now we can choose C# or Delphi ( or others ). Maybe best way to get
realistic info and cut thru FUD we need to wait for Delphi 8 sales figures.
Also number of enhancements for Delphi 8 IDE compared to already large
number of VS addons ( many of which are free ). We need actual numbers
rather than people arguin back and forth.
I dont think Borland management help in many ways. e.g I monitored sites for
both MS and Borland developer conferences. MS let anybody view any sessions
with slides and sycnched voice. Havent even found Borland slideshows.
Quote
"Frank Andreas de Groot" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
I think all informed, non-biased people here agree that "Delphi is dead"
in the
sense that Borland has stopped developing the Win32 version many years
ago.
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

Quote
MS wont s{*word*99} the Win32 API for a long time, but many new features of
windows will be .NET only. I think Win32 will be officially
'depreciated' in the next major version of windows.
And this is 2006 on the roadmap, so quite a long time to go!
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 07:12:10 +0100, "Frank Andreas de Groot"
<XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
I think all informed, non-biased people here agree that "Delphi is dead" in the
sense that Borland has stopped developing the Win32 version many years ago.
Your premise is false, so your conclusions are suspect.
I am well informed and non-biased (certainly loving some of the .Net
machinery and C# too).
I don't consider Delphi dead by a long shot though. It has features
as a language I still want. As an IDE I prefer VS.Net's. Certainly
the help and examples available there are superior to anything Borland
ever produced.
<snip>
Quote
And MS will never s{*word*99} the Win32 API either.
Not in the short term. The long term picture is different.
Quote

So Delphi (not the .net version) remains the best choice for Windows development
for many years to come.


Perhaps you have missed the overall beauty of Borland's approach (as I
(mis)understand it is that one doesn't have to immediately choose
whether to .net or .not.net an application's development path.
Oz
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

"Eric Schreiber" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

And therefore, anyone who doesn't agree with you is both biased and
ill-informed?
Yeah isn't it great, I have read a book about: "Advanced Discussion Tricks" :)
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

The only reason Delphi is dead is because there isn't any support by
Borland. Where is the SP. In another thread, someone said, people
will come out to support Delphi when 8 ships. I doubt it. I think
it is quite because people are looking else where.
Borland continues to shoot themselves in the foot. They are doing the
same thing they did with Kylix with Delphi 8.
How many Linux user want a Kylix with C 90% Yes 10% No
How many Linux C users will buy Kylix with C 10% Yes 90% No
How many want Delphi for .Net 90% Yes 10% No
How many will buy in the first 18 months 10% Yes 90% No
I love Pascal. It is my language of choice. I love Delphi. It is
my programming environment of choice. Unfortunately, Borland has
abandoned VCL 32 development. Delphi is dead. People will continue
to use it, as I will, but I am hoping that great things will happen
around FreePascal and Lazarus.
Anyone want to help me port dbExpress to FreePascal? We will have the
source and won't have to wait 18 months to 2 years for bug fixes. We
can make them ourselves.
www.freepascal.org/
sourceforge.net/projects/lazarus/
Frank Andreas de Groot writes:
Quote
I think all informed, non-biased people here agree that "Delphi is dead" in the
sense that Borland has stopped developing the Win32 version many years ago.

But Delphi's user base is so huge (especially in countries where Borland refuses
to sell, like Russia), that it is creating it is own gravity.

And MS will never s{*word*99} the Win32 API either.

So Delphi (not the .net version) remains the best choice for Windows development
for many years to come.


--
Thomas Miller
Delphi Client/Server Certified Developer
BSS Accounting & Distribution Software
BSS Enterprise Accounting FrameWork
www.bss-software.com
sourceforge.net/projects/dbexpressplus
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

Quote


Perhaps you have missed the overall beauty of Borland's approach (as I
(mis)understand it is that one doesn't have to immediately choose
whether to .net or .not.net an application's development path.

We all see the beauty. I think we are all disappointment in the
execution. Poor marketing = no jobs No SPs = Product Dead ???
Borland is their own worst enemy. I had hoped to spend the next
10 years programming in some sort of Borland IDE and Pascal. I
still hope to be spending my 10 next years programming in Pascal.
Borland IDEs has become optional.
--
Thomas Miller
Delphi Client/Server Certified Developer
BSS Accounting & Distribution Software
BSS Enterprise Accounting FrameWork
www.bss-software.com
sourceforge.net/projects/dbexpressplus
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

Frank Andreas de Groot writes:
Quote
And it is just your own conjecture to assume that .net will have exclusive
Windows OS functionality that will not be available to non-.net developers.
This would be highly damaging to MS.
Yeah that is true. However, they took a similar risk with VB, adding in some
cool features to the language that developers can benefit from (they
practically rewrote the thing). It came with a price: these features were
exclusive to VB.NET, no future Win32 development for VB, and a greater learning
curve.
Needless to say, VB(Visual Basic) developers were not exactly...thrilled with the
consequences.
-Michael Bennett
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

Frank Andreas de Groot writes:
Quote
"Will DeWitt Jr." <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:3fc9ecab$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...

>Very very unlikely. I just don't see them re-writing the entire
>user-mode OS to cater to .NET, I just don't.

I don't even see them fix any bugs.
Take a slider, drop it on a form and scale it nice and narrow.
When you run it, it has the wrong size.
Unfortunately, MS has a large category of bugs that can not be fixed because
people have written applications depending on that behavior. This might be
one of those bugs. Raymond Chen occasionally rants about that in his blog,
The Old New Thing. (blogs.gotdotnet.com/raymondc/)
 

Re:My view on the "Delphi is dead" issue

"Michael Bennett" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote
Quote
Yeah that is true. However, they took a similar risk with VB, adding in some
cool features to the language that developers can benefit from (they
practically rewrote the thing). It came with a price: these features were
exclusive to VB.NET, no future Win32 development for VB, and a greater
learning
curve.
A typical example of a technical decision made by marketing people.
"We need to make VB(Visual Basic) .net attractive for those nerds"
"Put something cool into it"