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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here


2005-02-09 12:34:45 AM
delphi200
Eric Grange writes:
Quote

This would be a major mistake as it would force developpers
into making variants of the UI for supporting what the end-user
hardware may or may not support, and having to do that already
for 3D apps, I can ensure you that it is a lot of work, and a lot
of testing.
Again that will no doubt be true in some cases but I'd suspect that it
would be fairly minimal. The vast majority of business apps will have no
need for any functions that can not be handled by existing video cards and
will not need conditional code of any sort.
Some subset of those that can make good use of such features will be able to
do so in such a way that the affected functions can simply be turned on or
off upon detection rather than affecting every form and the core
functionality of the app.
IMO, one must decide up front, when starting development, whether one is
going to require advanced features or not. The worse design one could choose
is to create conditional versions of every form to accomodate different
levels of graphics features. The design would isolate those specific parts
(e.g. display of a graph) that actually need advanced features. These parts
can then be placed in a library with the app simply loading the correct
library on startup, or various other means.
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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Quote
Some subset of those that can make good use of such features will be able to
do so in such a way that the affected functions can simply be turned on or
off upon detection rather than affecting every form and the core
functionality of the app.
Such an approach means that Avalon would essentially turn out as a
useless presentation layer, I don't see MS investing so much into
a useless libraries, or announce/warn that the LongHorn UI will be
different and require an adaptation period if it was to serve us
the classic UI again.
Quote
IMO, one must decide up front, when starting development, whether one is
going to require advanced features or not.
The whole point of Avalon and LongHorn is to make these "advanced" features
a baseline, so that developpers can get out of the situation we have today,
which is: advanced features are available, but not so widely supported.
You can already do 3D UIs, it is not that hard to emulate what Avalon
does on a GeForce FX f.i., but without a common 3D baseline, it means
a lot of work to support every config out there, be it via OpenGL
or DirectX.
Quote
[...] These parts can then be placed in a library with the app simply
loading the correct library on startup, or various other means.
That still means a lot of extra work. A better solution for the whole
development market and MS is to just require 3D upon every desktop,
and leave 2D stuff for failsafe modes.
Image-wise, MS also needs it to keep up with Apple (mini-mac already
has a 3D-based UI).
Interestingly enough, 2D UIs faced similar criticism from text-mode
people that 3D faces today, but after a rather short period of adaptation,
rare were those still clinging to their text-mode UIs.
Eric
 

Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

I haven't seen that. You will have to have a special driver
and it will run dog slow on current cards, but you won't
"have to" replace it. (Am I picking up bad habits form
TeamB here).
Of course I can not imagine anyone not updating their video
card. By the way Avalon was pulled from Longhorn.
Eric Grange writes:
Quote
>So if MS tells them to replace, say, 1000 computers, right now, they
>will simply do that, even if they aren't unhappy with what they have
>now?


Hardware replacements will be necessary for LongHorn too,
even the 32bit version (because of Avalon).

Eric
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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Why would any upgrade to Longhorn just to run like Win98?
This is what I am talking about. Arguing to just argue.
Any company that plans on going to Longhorn will surely
budget in new hardware too, or they would be stupid to move.
So the hardware isn't really an issue here either.
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Eric Grange writes:


>>Well, I guess that Longhorn won't be the big success among business
>>owners then. Pity Microsoft doesn't know this. <g>
>
>Business owners will have 64bit machines by the time LongHorn is here,
>and anyone getting caught with a machine that doesn't support the NX
>bit will be laughed at ;)


Or they will use the "classic" mode Kostya mentioned. <g>


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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Why would anyone upgrade to Longhorn just to run it like
Win98? This is what I am talking about. Arguing to just
argue. Any company that plans on going to Longhorn will
surely budget in new hardware too, or they would be stupid
to move.
So the hardware isn't really an issue here either. Just as
in 2007 the hardware will me a *minor* issue for native.
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Eric Grange writes:


>>Well, I guess that Longhorn won't be the big success among business
>>owners then. Pity Microsoft doesn't know this. <g>
>
>Business owners will have 64bit machines by the time LongHorn is here,
>and anyone getting caught with a machine that doesn't support the NX
>bit will be laughed at ;)


Or they will use the "classic" mode Kostya mentioned. <g>


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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Who would want that? Again, arguing to argue.
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Eric Grange writes:


>>Or they will use the "classic" mode Kostya mentioned. <g>
>
>Which will get them... what?


A .NET/Avalon version running on existing hardware.
--
Thomas Miller
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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Which is great. Which means in another 18 months, there
should be a very very healthy market.
Bob Dawson writes:
Quote
"Thomas Miller" wrote

>say. In the mean time, most of the industry, at least 75%,
>will be running native aps.


And on corparate standard platforms that have only recently tipped towards
{*word*108} by XP.

bobD


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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Thomas Miller writes:
Quote
Why would anyone upgrade to Longhorn just to run it like Win98? This
is what I am talking about. Arguing to just argue. Any company
that plans on going to Longhorn will surely budget in new
hardware too [...]
Thomas, don't accuse Rudy of "arguing to argue" without reading what
he wrote. it is argumentative. :) <- (Please observe smiley.)
Avalon will run on XP as well as Longhorn. Rudy was describing the
"classic" mode in Avalon, not Longhorn. Many people -- most people
using XP today -- may well be able to use Avalon-based apps without
upgrading to Longhorn.
This is a very big deal for Avalon because it significantly expands
the potential customer base of an Avalon-based application.
--
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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Thomas Miller writes:
Quote
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:

>A .NET/Avalon version running on existing hardware.
Who would want that?
Anyone writing an Avalon-based app who wants to ensure that a big
chunk of the market isn't totally shut out of their potential customer
base.
Quote
Again, arguing to argue.
Really, I think you should look long and hard in the mirror before
making such comments about other people's motivations.
-Craig
--
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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

"BOB-O-MATIC" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>Wow, that is quite the amount of pain to take to solve the problem.
>Go get an FPC, at least you do not have to write it yourself
>and AFAIK then have 64bit version.
>
>Kostya

Exactly. I thought the DL issue was *Delphi*. Now he says the issue is
*Pascal*, but as you pointed out, there ALREADY IS a Pascal 64bit
compiler.
No not yet. As soon as WinXP64 hits the streets in April the GnuC guys need
to create a tool chain for Win64. Once that is done the FP guys can port
their compiler to Win64. They don't have one yet.
Me and Thomas Miller (and others) are monitoring FP developments. I still
have concerns of "commercial" issues since the FP compiler isn't licensed
under MPL.
I think I will spec out what it would take to write a pascal compiler from
scratch, anyway. It would be nice to write one for socket servers that I
could compile for Windows or Linux. If I did that, I will bet the NexusDb
guys would help me out with an ODBC driver... ;-)
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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Quote
I haven't seen that. You will have to have a special driver and it will
run dog slow on current cards, but you won't "have to" replace it. (Am
I picking up bad habits form TeamB here).
Since it will be based upon DirectX and software rendering in DirectX
isn't in the redistributable, I think you will really "have to", that is,
if you want to run Avalon, which you are not "forced to" ;)
Quote
Of course I can not imagine anyone not updating their video card. By the
way Avalon was pulled from Longhorn.
Yep, but I don't expect miracles out of it before video cards
manufacturers get their drivers up to speed (if they do at all
for all their older hardware, which apart from nVidia's,
I'm highly dubious of).
I reckon most of the integrated graphics hardware won't be able
to run Avalon in interactive fashion, so "LongHorn" may be the system
check you will want in your code, rather than "Avalon installed".
Good thing for us 3D developpers, as all driver developpers will
have to test against more than Quake/3DMark and damn the rest.
Eric
 

Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Craig Stuntz [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Thomas Miller writes:


>Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] writes:
>
>
>>A .NET/Avalon version running on existing hardware.


>Who would want that?


Anyone writing an Avalon-based app who wants to ensure that a big
chunk of the market isn't totally shut out of their potential customer
base.
That would be like running a Dos ap on Windows XP. I have
not tested Avalon, but the three article I have seen said
that don't bother running anything Avalon without a new
video board because it is that bad.
Looking in the mirror, I will leave it at that.
Quote


>Again, arguing to argue.


Really, I think you should look long and hard in the mirror before
making such comments about other people's motivations.

-Craig
I will. Hopefully Rudy will too.
--
Thomas Miller
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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

OK, point taken, but it still stands that a company
upgrading to an Avalon based product will also budget for
the proper hardware, or they won't move to it.
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] writes:
Quote
Thomas Miller writes:


>Why would anyone upgrade to Longhorn just to run it like Win98? This
>is what I am talking about. Arguing to just argue. Any company
>that plans on going to Longhorn will surely budget in new
>hardware too [...]


Thomas, don't accuse Rudy of "arguing to argue" without reading what
he wrote. it is argumentative. :) <- (Please observe smiley.)

Avalon will run on XP as well as Longhorn. Rudy was describing the
"classic" mode in Avalon, not Longhorn. Many people -- most people
using XP today -- may well be able to use Avalon-based apps without
upgrading to Longhorn.

This is a very big deal for Avalon because it significantly expands
the potential customer base of an Avalon-based application.

--
Thomas Miller
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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Thomas Miller writes:
Quote
That would be like running a Dos ap on Windows XP. I have not tested
Avalon, but the three article I have seen said that don't bother
running anything Avalon without a new video board because it is that
bad.
That may or may not be the case when it is out of beta, and I suspect
it will depend heavily on what you are doing. I won't even speculate on
what post-beta performance will be like, nor will I pay attention to
anyone who does and who isn't on the Avalon team.
-Craig
--
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Re: [64-bit Delphi] Intel says the 64-bit Tipping Point is here

Eric Grange writes:
Quote

The whole point of Avalon and LongHorn is to make these "advanced" features
a baseline, so that developpers can get out of the situation we have today,
which is: advanced features are available, but not so widely supported.

Very true, but this baseline won't be established for some
time because a limited number of people and companies will
go out of their way to upgrade hardware just to support new
software. Hopefully around the beginning of 2007, a tipping
point will happen that a lot of the hardware will already be
in place for W64, Avalon and Longhorn. But it isn't going
to happen overnight.
--
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