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Delphi-apps on 64-bit


2003-10-13 10:22:52 PM
delphi50
just some thoughts for those of us that have concerns about the long-term
perspective regarding Delphi-Apps making *use* of 64-bit while running on
IA64 or AMD64 machines (without WOW64):
One option might be using Delphi for .NET managed code executed on a 64-bit
machine. An overview of the 64-bit .NET CLR is given on:
msdn.microsoft.com/msdntv/episode.aspx
Assembly images will be tagged for "bitness", meaning 32-bit, 64-bit or
neutral (can run in both 32-bit and 64-bit mode). Sounds like a big mess if
your code is not tagged "neutral", otherwise it is going to be a breeze.
a hint that the first alpha/beta versions of the 64-bit .NET CLR might get
distributed at the PDC as a developer preview just two weeks from now:
blogs.gotdotnet.com/BradA/commentview.aspx/f744e127-8784-458f-90fa-28218db254cc
Quote from Brad Abrams:
Quote
>"Oh, yes, I missed the 64 bit world.... I think you will be happy with the
64 bit story... Most of the bits described above will be there in 64bit
flavor..." (at PDC)
Whidbey final (including the new CLR) is currently scheduled for a Q3 2004
release, so I guess that we might not see a *production release* of any
64-bit CLR until at least then.
Another option probably somewhere in the future will be Delphi 64-bit native
code compilation (actually requiring two different compilers - one for
AMD64 - another one for IA64, sounds a bit impractical to me, too).
Quote from Danny Thorpe (2003-07-16) on urljr.com/ym:
Quote
"I have not said that Borland will never create a 64 bit Delphi compiler.
I
have said that I am fully tasked for the immediate future, and in that
immediate future it doesn't seem likely that a 64 bit processor will
suddenly appear with enough overnight market presence to justify Borland
investing millions of dollars in tool development for it."
So I guess we might not see any native-code 64-bit delphi-compilers for at
least 1-2 years.
-Peter
 
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

sorry, just a correction, second paragraph should actually mean:
One option might be using the Delphi for .NET-compiler to create managed
code and let the managed code then get executed on a 64-bit machine.
"Peter Sleuth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
just some thoughts for those of us that have concerns about the long-term
perspective regarding Delphi-Apps making *use* of 64-bit while running on
IA64 or AMD64 machines (without WOW64):

One option might be using Delphi for .NET managed code executed on a
64-bit
machine. An overview of the 64-bit .NET CLR is given on:

msdn.microsoft.com/msdntv/episode.aspx

Assembly images will be tagged for "bitness", meaning 32-bit, 64-bit or
neutral (can run in both 32-bit and 64-bit mode). Sounds like a big mess
if
your code is not tagged "neutral", otherwise it is going to be a breeze.

a hint that the first alpha/beta versions of the 64-bit .NET CLR might get
distributed at the PDC as a developer preview just two weeks from now:

blogs.gotdotnet.com/BradA/commentview.aspx/f744e127-8784-458f-90fa-28218db254cc

Quote from Brad Abrams:
>>"Oh, yes, I missed the 64 bit world.... I think you will be happy with
the
64 bit story... Most of the bits described above will be there in 64bit
flavor..." (at PDC)

Whidbey final (including the new CLR) is currently scheduled for a Q3 2004
release, so I guess that we might not see a *production release* of any
64-bit CLR until at least then.

Another option probably somewhere in the future will be Delphi 64-bit
native
code compilation (actually requiring two different compilers - one for
AMD64 - another one for IA64, sounds a bit impractical to me, too).

Quote from Danny Thorpe (2003-07-16) on urljr.com/ym:
>"I have not said that Borland will never create a 64 bit Delphi
compiler.
I
>have said that I am fully tasked for the immediate future, and in that
>immediate future it doesn't seem likely that a 64 bit processor will
>suddenly appear with enough overnight market presence to justify Borland
>investing millions of dollars in tool development for it."

So I guess we might not see any native-code 64-bit delphi-compilers for at
least 1-2 years.

-Peter


 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

"Peter Sleuth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
sorry, just a correction, second paragraph should actually mean:

One option might be using the Delphi for .NET-compiler to create managed
code and let the managed code then get executed on a 64-bit machine.

Yes, what you are saying is that since the Delphi/.NET IDE is a 32-bit
application, and we will need to *generate* the code; in order for it to run
on 64-bit windows....
This might not be too onerous....
Correct me if I am wrong. Don't want to put words in your mouth...
The only way I can see around that is to write the IDE, itself, as .NET
app..., which means it will need to be written in C# or VC.NET...
(writing it with the JBuilder IDE would send the wrong message....)
;-)
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

"Dennis Landi" <none[at]none.com>writes
Quote

"Peter Sleuth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>sorry, just a correction, second paragraph should actually mean:
>
>One option might be using the Delphi for .NET-compiler to create managed
>code and let the managed code then get executed on a 64-bit machine.
>

Yes, what you are saying is that since the Delphi/.NET IDE is a 32-bit
application, and we will need to *generate* the code; in order for it to
run
on 64-bit windows....

This might not be too onerous....

Correct me if I am wrong. Don't want to put words in your mouth...
Actually, that is not what I tried to say. Sorry about expressing myself in
an unclear way. I currently think about the options for one of my apps
(dealing with a very large cache (inmemory-database)) that could *possibly*
benefit from having direct access to more then just the standard 32-bit
adress-space (meaning 2-3 gig per process as 1 gig is usually reserved
exclusivly for Win32). Currently the only option would be AWE (Address
windowing extensions), a year from now .NET 64bit CLR might be another
option, and probably two years from now DelphiForWin64-native code
compilation could be yet another option.
Quote
The only way I can see around that is to write the IDE, itself, as .NET
app..., which means it will need to be written in C# or VC.NET...

(writing it with the JBuilder IDE would send the wrong message....)

;-)

But indeed a complete port of the Galleo-core (for the C#Builder and Delphi
for .NET IDEs) to managed code could be an interesting long-term goal for
borland, I guess.
BTW, what do you think about the forthcoming assembly image tagging for
"bitness"?
-Peter
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

"Peter Sleuth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
BTW, what do you think about the forthcoming assembly image tagging for
"bitness"?
I have to go play tennis now.
:-)
Will check out your MSDN video later.... And get back to ya.
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

"Peter Sleuth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
I currently think about the options for one of my apps
(dealing with a very large cache (inmemory-database)) that could
*possibly*
benefit from having direct access to more then just the standard 32-bit
adress-space (meaning 2-3 gig per process as 1 gig is usually reserved
exclusivly for Win32). Currently the only option would be AWE (Address
windowing extensions),
Yuck.
Quote
a year from now .NET 64bit CLR might be another
option,
Why a year from now?
Quote
and probably two years from now DelphiForWin64-native code
compilation could be yet another option.

If Borland will put that in a "forward looking statement" I will stop
screaming.
Quote
>The only way I can see around that is to write the IDE, itself, as .NET
>app..., which means it will need to be written in C# or VC.NET...
>
>(writing it with the JBuilder IDE would send the wrong message....)
>
>;-)
>

But indeed a complete port of the Galleo-core (for the C#Builder and
Delphi
for .NET IDEs) to managed code could be an interesting long-term goal for
borland, I guess.

Well, its going to have to run on WinXP64, I should think... that is not that
far-fetched... However the video, aforementioned by you, does reference
running the Visual .NET Studio on a 32 bit machine while debugging code on a
64-bit machine... (I think.)
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

"Peter Sleuth" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
BTW, what do you think about the forthcoming assembly image tagging for
"bitness"?
Well, the good news (for some) is that we can actually right managed and
unmanaged code in Delphi and deploy it on Win64 in the 32-bit WOW layer.
This is no small thing, and will be welcome to many.
Doesn't help me, however. Like you, I need a solution for a very larger
in-memory DB, that takes advantage of the larger memory address space.
I guess I am just going to have to wait for Whidbey, Longhorn and Octane, to
make hands-on sense of all this...
waiting.waiting.
-dennis
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

Quote
So I guess we might not see any native-code 64-bit delphi-compilers for at
least 1-2 years.
WIth the move to Virtual Machines and CLR etc., I am willing to bet you will
never see one.
Oliver Townshend
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

Quote
WIth the move to Virtual Machines and CLR etc., I am willing to bet
you will never see one.
at least from borland that is I quess
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

"johnnie" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote
>WIth the move to Virtual Machines and CLR etc., I am willing to bet
>you will never see one.

at least from borland that is I quess
If there is a large enough market for it you will. I the market stays a nitch developer market you won't.
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

Jeff Overcash (TeamB) writes:
Quote

"johnnie" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
>>WIth the move to Virtual Machines and CLR etc., I am willing to bet
>>you will never see one.
>
>at least from borland that is I quess

If there is a large enough market for it you will. I the market
stays a nitch developer market you won't.
Well The market exists and will always do now the main question
*in my opinion* is do Borland wants to spend any resource on
gathering this market or do they prefare to target a market
which needs a lot less resources and spend them elsewhere.
Regards
johnnie.
 

Re:Delphi-apps on 64-bit

johnnie writes:
Quote

Jeff Overcash (TeamB) writes:

>
>"johnnie" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
>>>WIth the move to Virtual Machines and CLR etc., I am willing to bet
>>>you will never see one.
>>
>>at least from borland that is I quess
>
>If there is a large enough market for it you will. I the market
>stays a nitch developer market you won't.

Well The market exists and will always do now the main question
*in my opinion* is do Borland wants to spend any resource on
gathering this market or do they prefare to target a market
which needs a lot less resources and spend them elsewhere.

Borland's current research shows the market isn't large enough to warrant
developing a Win64 compiler according to Danny Thorpe. Unless you have research
showing the size of the developer market and how much of that reasonably would
use Delphi, I will go with the research done by Borland at this time. They get 64
bit support by default with the .NET version, so you would have to show the need
for a native Win64 compiler that easily offsets the cost of developing such a
product (especially with the WinXx API's being depreciated by MS in favor of
.NET which will be the native API within a few years)..
--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
If there is somebody up there could they throw me down a line. Just a
little helping hand just a little understanding. Just some answers to the
questions that surround me now. If there's somebody up there could
they throw me down a line. (Fish)