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why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?


2004-12-28 04:06:10 AM
delphi121
There's been a lot of talk about all the nifty new features in Delphi 2005.
But if you take away all that, what real changes are there for Win32
development from Delphi 6 or 7? I am not talking about new enhancements,
like the for-in-do or function inlining, but modifications necessary to
recompile or gotchas one would run into if no coding changes were made. I
suspect that it is completely backwards-compatible to Delphi 6. This is
what I have found so far and, of course, is good news.
I've been able to convert several component packages over with no coding
changes (except to get around the $INCLUDE bug and to support the new
compiler version directive, VER170). Some component vendors are trying to
charge steep upgrades because they now also support .NET along with Win32.
But I'd guess that a great number of Delphi developers will still be
doing only Win32 development for quite some time.
It almost sounds like these vendors feel this way too and the only way to
make money after their D6/D7 version was released would be to provide a lot
of new functionality--or force people to upgrade to the .NET version just to
support Delphi 2005.
I gladly support new functionality. And I understand that to stay in
business, there needs to be income. And if there isn't enough new
functionality to justify an upgrade, what do you do? Bundle it in with a
.NET upgrade (which provides the "new functionality").
What this tells me is that some component vendors don't believe there will
be enough money in the .NET side alone to keep them in business. I fully
believe that! At least for the next few years.
Is the scenario I have painted here true? I am really interested to hear why
people are upgrading to D2005 if they're only using Win32 and what their
plans are for the future of Win32 development vs .NET development.
Personally, I like many of the new features of the IDE, am slowly learning
.NET, and realize there will always be upgrades and changes in the world of
technology. I think the addition of the refactoring and DUnit testing
framework alone are almost worth the upgrade. However, I will have to buy a
new laptop to handle the environment. (*sigh*)
--
David Cornelius
CorneliusConcepts.com
 
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

David Cornelius writes:
Quote
I've been able to convert several component packages over with no
coding changes (except to get around the $INCLUDE bug and to support
the new compiler version directive, VER170). Some component vendors
are trying to charge steep upgrades because they now also support
.NET along with Win32. But I'd guess that a great number of
Delphi developers will still be doing only Win32 development for
quite some time.
This is something thats puzzled me. Recently I read a post to colin
about the virtual tree component and that the guy who wrote it was
having issues putting it into d2k5.. yet, I just shoved it in loading
the Delphi 7 options and all was well, like you making a few alterations to
allow the include files to cope with VER170 being greater than VER140
or whatever, but, everything Ive found and used so far has compiled
without issues into d2k5. A few issues Ive had have been because Ive
been jumping from 5 to 9.. a lot did change and newer options which
werent plausable in 5 have defaulted to unwanted settings.. but thats
about it.
Quote
What this tells me is that some component vendors don't believe there
will be enough money in the .NET side alone to keep them in business.
I fully believe that! At least for the next few years.
That or they dont feel that the .net changes they need to make to keep
up are cost effective and are padding their losses by bumping the win32
costs because its money for old rope.
Quote
However, I will have to buy a new laptop to handle the environment.
(*sigh*)
My laptop is a P500, I bought it while in hospital 99, it can and will
just about manage to run D2k5. It is however painfully slow.
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

If there are no new features then surely they shouldn't be charging for it.
In my opinion an "upgrade" is an upgrade to the product you buy, not the IDE
they work within.
As for .net, the only reason I didn't convert my audio compression
components to .net was because .net already has good support for audio.
That, and the fact that I didn't want to :-)
--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com
Read or write articles on just about anything
www.HowToDoThings.com
My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

Hi David
We have released a free upgrade to all customers, that includes both Delphi 2005 Win32 and .Net support (as well as some bug fixes and new features).
For non-customers, the price is the same it was, and now includes all changes to support the .Net side of Delphi 2005.
I personally think upgrades should be as cheaper as possible because customers have already paid big money when buying the product for first time. that is been TeeChart "philosophy" since v1.0.
regards
david
www.teechart.com
"David Cornelius" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes news:41d06b25$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
<snip>
....
Quote
Some component vendors are trying to charge steep upgrades
because they now also support .NET along with Win32.
....
</snip>
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

Peter,
Quote
If there are no new features then surely they shouldn't be charging for
it. In my opinion an "upgrade" is an upgrade to the product you buy, not
the IDE they work within.
Yes--this is what I believe as well. But not everyone feels the same.
Fortuneately, I have source code for two of the component packages whose
companies require a purchased upgrade. For these, I have been able to
recompile and upgrade myself!
--
David Cornelius
CorneliusConcepts.com
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

Liz,
Quote
>Some component vendors
>are trying to charge steep upgrades because they now also support
>.NET along with Win32. But I'd guess that a great number of
>Delphi developers will still be doing only Win32 development for
>quite some time.

A few issues Ive had have been because Ive
been jumping from 5 to 9.. a lot did change and newer options which
werent plausable in 5 have defaulted to unwanted settings.. but thats
about it.
Yes, several things changed after version 5, partly to support CLX. But
since Delphi 6, I think it is been very stable.
Quote
>What this tells me is that some component vendors don't believe there
>will be enough money in the .NET side alone to keep them in business.
>I fully believe that! At least for the next few years.

That or they dont feel that the .net changes they need to make to keep
up are cost effective and are padding their losses by bumping the win32
costs because its money for old rope.
That's what I am guessing...
Quote
>However, I will have to buy a new laptop to handle the environment.
>(*sigh*)

My laptop is a P500, I bought it while in hospital 99, it can and will
just about manage to run D2k5. It is however painfully slow.
500?! Wow--maybe there's hope for my 800. That is, if I can find enough
disk space on the measly 10GB drive. ;-)
--
David Cornelius
CorneliusConcepts.com
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

That's great to hear! Thanks for the note.
--
David Cornelius
CorneliusConcepts.com
"David Berneda" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Hi David
We have released a free upgrade to all customers, that includes both Delphi
2005 Win32 and .Net support (as well as some bug fixes and new features).
For non-customers, the price is the same it was, and now includes all
changes to support the .Net side of Delphi 2005.
I personally think upgrades should be as cheaper as possible because
customers have already paid big money when buying the product for first
time. that is been TeeChart "philosophy" since v1.0.
regards
david
www.teechart.com
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

David Cornelius writes:
Quote
>My laptop is a P500, I bought it while in hospital 99, it can and
>will just about manage to run D2k5. It is however painfully slow.

500?! Wow--maybe there's hope for my 800. That is, if I can find
enough disk space on the measly 10GB drive. ;-)
There is deffinately hope :) quesiton is how productive you feel, my
laptop served me well in hospital, it was brand new and within 3 weeks
I had worn the print off the keys.. I managed to get them to replace it
but they soon started wearing out again so I had to paint every key
with nail varnish!
It also played DVDs .. well supposedly, Im not sure I ever successfully
did it always hung.. it was very early in the DVD laptop days, but it
has a huge screen and it had proper keyboard, eg it has a keyboard and
number pad on it, and a dvd+floppy built in, so yes its a bit longer
than most but that just allowed for bigger screen IMHO :)
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

David Berneda writes:
Quote
I personally think upgrades should be as cheaper as possible because
customers have already paid big money when buying the product for
first time. that is been TeeChart "philosophy" since v1.0.
Excellent attitude, and excellent customer care. I plan to remain fully
committed to TeeChart. This is good for Borland too (I hope they are paying
attention), since this kind of attitude from vendors makes it easier to
migrate to newer versions of Delphi.
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

Although it is true that in most cases there is just a conditional define
to change, do not overlook that the process is often much more involved
with retesting the components, rebuilding distributions, etc etc ... which
can be far more time consuming. In our case, we also had to make some
special changes for proper design-time handling in D2005.
Nevertheless, we have never charged for 'IDE-upgrades'
because we feel we just need to keep the pace of the IDEs.
--
Kind regards,
Bruno Fierens
TMS software
Productivity components for Windows, Linux, IntraWeb, .NET development
www.tmssoftware.com
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

Quote
Although it is true that in most cases there is just a conditional define
to change, do not overlook that the process is often much more involved
with retesting the components, rebuilding distributions, etc etc ... which
can be far more time consuming. In our case, we also had to make some
special changes for proper design-time handling in D2005.
But the vendor would do this anyway in order to keep his product available
for the market. I had to spend time updating my component installer, it was
a pain and I didn't want to do it, but people didn't have to pay for an
upgrade because they weren't getting anything new.
I had to make those modifications anyway, otherwise my components wouldn't
have installed for D2005 and I wouldn't have had any new orders.
Quote
Nevertheless, we have never charged for 'IDE-upgrades'
because we feel we just need to keep the pace of the IDEs.
Exactly.
--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com
Read or write articles on just about anything
www.HowToDoThings.com
My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

Hi,
Quote
It almost sounds like these vendors feel this way too and the only way to
make money after their D6/D7 version was released would be to provide a lot
of new functionality--or force people to upgrade to the .NET version just to
support Delphi 2005.
Unlike a rumor I heard there will be *no* charge for the WPTools 4
version for Delphi 2005 Win32 which hopefully will work soon (still
having problem with compiler DCC90 in one unit)
although there is
a) The new WPTools Version 5 which includes Delphi 2005 Win32 support
and which has been completely rewritten to eventually also support
.NET and the latest technology for word processing. (WYSIWYG
header+footer, split screen, optionally: footnotes, textboxes +
columns)
b) Several days already were spent just with testing.
www.wpcubed.com
Regards,
Julian Ziersch
Quote
There's been a lot of talk about all the nifty new features in Delphi 2005.
But if you take away all that, what real changes are there for Win32
development from Delphi 6 or 7? I am not talking about new enhancements,
like the for-in-do or function inlining, but modifications necessary to
recompile or gotchas one would run into if no coding changes were made. I
suspect that it is completely backwards-compatible to Delphi 6. This is
what I have found so far and, of course, is good news.

I've been able to convert several component packages over with no coding
changes (except to get around the $INCLUDE bug and to support the new
compiler version directive, VER170). Some component vendors are trying to
charge steep upgrades because they now also support .NET along with Win32.
But I'd guess that a great number of Delphi developers will still be
doing only Win32 development for quite some time.


I gladly support new functionality. And I understand that to stay in
business, there needs to be income. And if there isn't enough new
functionality to justify an upgrade, what do you do? Bundle it in with a
.NET upgrade (which provides the "new functionality").

What this tells me is that some component vendors don't believe there will
be enough money in the .NET side alone to keep them in business. I fully
believe that! At least for the next few years.

Is the scenario I have painted here true? I am really interested to hear why
people are upgrading to D2005 if they're only using Win32 and what their
plans are for the future of Win32 development vs .NET development.
Personally, I like many of the new features of the IDE, am slowly learning
.NET, and realize there will always be upgrades and changes in the world of
technology. I think the addition of the refactoring and DUnit testing
framework alone are almost worth the upgrade. However, I will have to buy a
new laptop to handle the environment. (*sigh*)
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

Julian,
Quote
Unlike a rumor I heard there will be *no* charge for the WPTools 4
version for Delphi 2005 Win32 which hopefully will work soon (still
having problem with compiler DCC90 in one unit)
Thanks for the note! I am eagerly awaiting the D2005-compatible version of
WPT4--it's the last component I need before migrating my main application to
the new IDE.
--
David Cornelius
CorneliusConcepts.com
 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

David,
Playing devils advocate...
Well... the vendors do have to support the product under a new compilier.
Now, you say their aren't any differences, but unfortunately, components
in Delphi are version specific. You need separate builds and installs for
each. A vendor has to develop, compile, test, and fix under every version
that they support.
For example, if you have a component which is supported under D4,
D5, D6, D7, and D2005 (Win32) -- and someone reports a bug under
D7, guess what? You have to:
a) Test to see if the bug occurs under D4, D5, D6, and D2005 also.
b) You need to fix it under D7.
c) Then you need to test it again under D4, D5, D6, D7, and D2005.
d) Then you need to release a fix for it.
e) You need to test the installs under D4, D5, D6, D7, and D2005.
f) Then you need to deal with the support from folks installing it under
all sorts of versions.
And none of this includes different OS testing...
The mere fact you support D2005 means you have to deal with any
development environment problems your components might have
due to its differences over the D4-D7 versions and fix the code in
a way which doesn't break your previous builds.
And for those offering .NET versions of their components, placing them
in with the D2005 Win/32 components is a no-brainer. D2005 is a
single product. It isn't sold separately since it is marketted as a single
system for .NET and Win32 development. Why component makers
would buck the trend I don't know. Why confuse your clients with
multiple D2005 versions if you have both?
Thanks,
Brett
"David Cornelius" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
There's been a lot of talk about all the nifty new features in Delphi
2005.
But if you take away all that, what real changes are there for Win32
development from Delphi 6 or 7? I am not talking about new enhancements,
like the for-in-do or function inlining, but modifications necessary to
recompile or gotchas one would run into if no coding changes were made. I
suspect that it is completely backwards-compatible to Delphi 6. This is
what I have found so far and, of course, is good news.

I've been able to convert several component packages over with no coding
changes (except to get around the $INCLUDE bug and to support the new
compiler version directive, VER170). Some component vendors are trying to
charge steep upgrades because they now also support .NET along with Win32.
But I'd guess that a great number of Delphi developers will still be
doing only Win32 development for quite some time.

It almost sounds like these vendors feel this way too and the only way to
make money after their D6/D7 version was released would be to provide a
lot
of new functionality--or force people to upgrade to the .NET version just
to
support Delphi 2005.

I gladly support new functionality. And I understand that to stay in
business, there needs to be income. And if there isn't enough new
functionality to justify an upgrade, what do you do? Bundle it in with a
.NET upgrade (which provides the "new functionality").

What this tells me is that some component vendors don't believe there will
be enough money in the .NET side alone to keep them in business. I fully
believe that! At least for the next few years.

Is the scenario I have painted here true? I am really interested to hear why
people are upgrading to D2005 if they're only using Win32 and what their
plans are for the future of Win32 development vs .NET development.
Personally, I like many of the new features of the IDE, am slowly learning
.NET, and realize there will always be upgrades and changes in the world
of
technology. I think the addition of the refactoring and DUnit testing
framework alone are almost worth the upgrade. However, I will have to buy a
new laptop to handle the environment. (*sigh*)

--
David Cornelius
CorneliusConcepts.com


 

Re:why are component vendors charging so much for Win32 upgrades?

Brett Watters writes:
Quote
f) Then you need to deal with the support from folks installing it under
all sorts of versions.
With all sort of experiences and willingness to read the user manuals.
IMHO, that is the most time consuming part of the process.