Board index » delphi » Re: What this mean for Borland?

Re: What this mean for Borland?


2006-04-03 04:50:34 AM
delphi4
John Jacobson writes:
Quote
I wonder where that would put developers like myself that know C++,
Delphi, VB(Visual Basic) AND C#?
You have your good and your bad days :-)
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
cc.borland.com/Author.aspx
QualityCentral. The best way to bug Borland about bugs.
qc.borland.com
"If something is too hard to do, then it is not worth doing. You just
stick that guitar in the closet next to your shortwave radio, your
karate outfit and your unicycle and we'll go inside and watch TV." -
Homer Simpson
 
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

"marc hoffman" wrote
Quote
sell their platform. But WHATEVER their reasons are for supporting
developers well, they ARE doing it (and that was the point, from the
beginning).
Selectively, whenever and to the extent it suits them, the point you're
consistently omitting. Deveolpers are managed by Microsoft by fiat, not
partnered with.
Quote
It's funny, really, for you to accuse me of just wanting to promote our
products, when it is YOU that keeps bringing RemObjects Software and our
products in a discussion that was purely about Microsoft and (to some
extend) Borland...
I find it impossible to understand your positions in any other context.
Anyone who can look at what happened, and is still happening, to VB(Visual Basic) and
still claim that MS is a reliable partner is either eligible for aid to the
blind, or else has another agenda strong enough to motivate such a
distortion. The claim that MS is committed to developers is so far from the
truth--indeed so non-sensical--that no other explanation for your repeating
it seems plausible.
Quote
Once again, if any promotion of our products has been done in this
thread, then you've been doing that FOR us,
Oops--and here I thought this was your doing:
--
marc hoffman
Chief Architect, .NET
RemObjects Software
www.remobjects.com

and the fifty-two daughters of the revolution
turn the gold to chrome
So that ad and link is being added to every post you make by some glitch in
Borland's server, is it? Do you realize how damaging your claim here is to
Chrome's credibility? I wonder that Alessandro tolerates it.
bobD
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

Quote
Borland attempted to seed this market by including Kylix in Delphi 7. Not
sure what else they could have done.
Yes.. but one of the reason I upgraded from Delphi 6 to Delphi 7 was that Kylix 3
was included in the package. Only Borland knows the exact number of
Kylix 3 licenses sold. But I seem to remember that there was more
action in the Kylix newsgroups before Kylix was "killed" than there
is today on Borlands C# group. ;)
Quote
[...] BDS cannot hope to survive via external lock-ins such as ECO or
links to Kylix.
The only lock-in that Borland should depend on or pour resources into in
the
BDS is the Delphi language itself.
I agree that the Delphi language should get new and powerful possibilites.
After all, Borland
owns the language. We know that generics are on the way. Maybe some of the
cool stuff
from "agile" languages like Ruby and Python (but in a compiled context) ?
It is difficult to compete with a giant like Microsofts Visual Studio. For
that reason I think
Borland should pay attention to the things that MS will not do. Visual
Studio will not
support Linux deployment (Mono compatability might be an exception). With
native support
for Linux (and Mac OsX?) Borland Developer Studio would have something that
MS cannot copy by just throwing money at it. I think it would be a big
mistake if
Borland gave up Linux (and the possibilities on OsX) just based on bad
sales figures for Kylix in the two or three (?) years it was in the market.
Things take time :)
-Dag
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

"Dag Fjeld Edvardsen" wrote
Quote
action in the Kylix newsgroups before Kylix was "killed" than there
is today on Borlands C# group. ;)
That is indeed a worry.
Quote
Borland should pay attention to the things that MS will not do.
Or does poorly. Cross-platform is a possibility, I just don't think it is the
only one, or even the primary. DevCo is going to be very interesting if they
can start doing what they want.
bobD
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

Bob,
Quote
I find it impossible to understand your positions in any other context.
Anyone who can look at what happened, and is still happening, to VB(Visual Basic) and
still claim that MS is a reliable partner is either eligible for aid to the
blind, or else has another agenda strong enough to motivate such a
distortion. The claim that MS is committed to developers is so far from the
truth--indeed so non-sensical--that no other explanation for your repeating
it seems plausible.
That's a matter of opinion, and i happen to disagree. Your line of
reasoning goes like "what you say doesn't agree with what i think -
therefore you must have a secret agenda", which is bull. What i say
doesn't agree with your thoughts on the matter because we're having a
discussion - if we'd agree, what would be the point of talking about this?
Quote
>Once again, if any promotion of our products has been done in this
>thread, then you've been doing that FOR us,

Oops--and here I thought this was your doing:
Look up common newsgroup practices, in particular to the term
"signature" - you will find that enlightening.
Suffice to say it is quite a stretch form me using a company a signature
to the claim that every word i post on the newsgroup is a marketing
attempt. By that line of reasoning, roughly half the people in this
group are doing nothing but trying to promote themselves, with every
post they make?
Quote
So that ad and link is being added to every post you make by some glitch in
Borland's server, is it? Do you realize how damaging your claim here is to
Chrome's credibility?
I do realize how badly you want it to be this way, by your ridiculous
attempts to make this discussion about Chrome, time and time again, even
though it never was until you brought it in.
Again, as everyone who followed this thread from the getgo sees, this
entire has never once been about RO or Chrome, except for the places
where you tried making it so.
Quote
I wonder that Alessandro tolerates it.
I wonder what that has to do with anything?
--
marc hoffman
Chief Architect, .NET
RemObjects Software
www.remobjects.com
and the fifty-two daughters of the revolution
turn the gold to chrome
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

Quote
In general, VB(Visual Basic) programmers ( at least this is my impression base on
those ones I have met here in Australia ) tend to be less skilled than
Delphi programmers, who in turn tend to be less skilled than
C++ or C# programmers.

Java programmers tend to run the whole spectrum from more clueless
than VB(Visual Basic) programmers all the way to truly brillian.
I think your last paragraph applies to all programmers personally. I have met
some good VB(Visual Basic) programmers. Never met a C# programmer.
Oliver Townshend
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

marc hoffman <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
<44302591$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
Quote
Given how centered I am on RemObjects and Chrome (which comes up first
time in this discussion now, as YOU mention it), YOU see to be
determined to bringing it up a whole lot in this discussion, on your own.

It's funny, really, for you to accuse me of just wanting to promote our
products, when it is YOU that keeps bringing RemObjects Software and our
products in a discussion that was purely about Microsoft and (to some
extend) Borland...
It seems to me that you to have missed the purpose of his rhetoric. The way I
read it, he was simply using your own reasoning to show you how silly it looks,
not to make any statement whatsoever about Chrome or RemObjects. I have noticed
that whenever anyone uses them in a rhetorical fashion that you, and the usual
suspects that follow you around, ignore the point made and instead react as if
something disparaging has been said about Chrome or RemObjects. It happens so
often and so predictably that it really makes one wonder what is really going
on behind the scenes. Truth be told, it is not unlike some arguments I have
seen between religious believers and non-believers on usenet.
--
***Free Your Mind***
Posted with JSNewsreader Preview 0.9.4.2218
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

"John Jacobson" wrote
Quote
[...] ignore the point made and instead react as if
something disparaging has been said about Chrome
or RemObjects.
Indeed. I don't use or know anything bad about either, and don't see where
I've claimed otherwise.
About the worst I can say is what I already did--that IMO marc's positions
and behavior here in the forums of a competitor reflect badly on his
judgment, and therefore on any products over which he might be influential.
Obviously, he is free to disregard that information as he likes, and I
rather think he will.
bobD
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

"marc hoffman" wrote
Quote

That's a matter of opinion, and i happen to disagree. Your line of
reasoning goes like "what you say doesn't agree with what i think -
therefore you must have a secret agenda", which is bull.
Few things are black and white. If a man tells me it is hot on a day I would only
consider warm, then obviously reasonable opinions might differ. But if a man
tells me that fire doesn't burn wood, and I don't think he's stupid, then I
have to start looking about for alternative explanations.
Quote
Suffice to say it is quite a stretch form me using a company a
signature to the claim that every word i post on the newsgroup
is a marketing attempt.
By your signature you choose to associate your posts with your products. I
choose to examine your positions by asking how they might apply to your
products, given whatever influence over them you might have. So what's the
beef?
Quote
By that line of reasoning, roughly half the people in this
group are doing nothing but trying to promote themselves, with
every post they make?
Actually, I would estimate that the number of people wearing their titles here
is considerably less than that. But be that as it may, I never said 'doing
nothing but.' You seem to see the world in rather high contrast.
Still, if you want a strong distinction, try this one: how many Delphi
competitors post here other than you? The only ones who come to mind are the
various pleaders for FPC and Lazarus. (And those strike me as being in poor
taste as well.)
bobD
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

Bob Dawson <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
<443097bc$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
Quote
Indeed. I don't use or know anything bad about either, and don't see where
I've claimed otherwise.
Same here, except that I did once look at the RemObjects SDK code, a few years
ago, and thought it was well-written, and said so. it is funny though, even
though the only commentary I have ever made about the quality of a RemObjects
product itself was highly positive, I am often accused of having made "attacks"
on RO products, and RO itself. That all started when I dared to disagree that
there was any market for Chrome, beyond a very few disgruntled but highly vocal
Delphi users that would actually put off the rest of the community from
seriously considering Chrome. Marc then seemed to lead the charge when it came
to interpreting every single post of mine as an attack on the product itself or
the company itself, and he apparently succeeded in convincing Alessandro of
that as well. Then I was banned from their newsgroups and told not to include
them in any emails either. Though I had known Alessandro for years before he
met marc, I haven't talked to him since the banning. I thought I had known him,
but I guess I didn't after all. Though I was simply stating my honest belief
about Chrome and the kind of customers it would likely attract, I am under the
impression that they view me as some kind of vicious traitor.
Perhaps they view all disagreements in a similar light, where one is either all
for them or all against them. I don't know, but it strikes me as very
interesting that you are getting the same type of reaction from marc that I
got. I really don't understand why they insist on comporting themselves in this
manner. I really, really don't.
--
***Free Your Mind***
Posted with JSNewsreader Preview 0.9.4.2221
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

Bob Dawson writes:
Quote
"marc hoffman" wrote
[...]
Still, if you want a strong distinction, try this one: how many Delphi
competitors post here other than you? The only ones who come to mind are the
various pleaders for FPC and Lazarus. (And those strike me as being in poor
taste as well.)
Why bother ? Delphi has been praised in Microsoft newsgroups too. If
it's not too excessive I don't have a problem with that.
Quote
bobD
Andre
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

Quote
I think cross-platform is the direction DevCo should go.
Except that I am not convinced very many people (comparatively speaking) have a
need to do cross-platform development.
Also, cross-platform almost by definition means a lowest common denominator
approach. To take advantage of any platform requires things specific to it.
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_____________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Skype : jim.cooper
Tabdee Ltd www.tabdee.ltd.uk
TurboSync - Connecting Delphi to your Palm
_____________________________________________
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

Bob Dawson writes:
Quote
"Dag Fjeld Edvardsen" wrote

>action in the Kylix newsgroups before Kylix was "killed" than there
>is today on Borlands C# group. ;)

That is indeed a worry.

>Borland should pay attention to the things that MS will not do.

Or does poorly. Cross-platform is a possibility, I just don't think it is the
only one, or even the primary. DevCo is going to be very interesting if they
can start doing what they want.
I think cross-platform is the direction DevCo should go. Freeze the VCL
as it is for win32 only, come out with a Unicode Visual Component
library. Make it designed and implemented to be platform agnostic, even
at the expense of VCL compatibility so you can implement it on WIn32,
.net, Linux, MacOS, and anywhere else.
DevCo should run with the Delphi Everywhere motto, and release a tool
that you can use to develop client & server apps for all the major
platforms from the same source code with the back end code being cross
compatible and the new VCL being compatible across all platforms without
massive tweaking. Think like WxWidgets, where each implementation is
native to the platform, and not just a cross platform widget set.
.net is never going to be cross platform, especially when their controls
still rely on windows messages, unless of course Linux is going to start
implementing WM_RESIZE etc...
Kylix failures were due to the lack of a market for commercial GUI apps
on Linux. However, it is successes were the need to create server console
apps on LInux, even if only for in-house purposes. On the Mac platform,
there is a market for commercial GUI apps, and I think you would
probably get better support from Apple than you would from Microsoft.
I agree, giving DevCo the change, and hopefully the financial support to
go in the direction it wants could be very liberating for it.
Unfortunately, if the ALM tools hadn't been sucking away delphi's
income, we might already have it.
Cheers,
Andy Gibson
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

Jim Cooper writes:
Quote

>I think cross-platform is the direction DevCo should go.

Except that I am not convinced very many people (comparatively speaking)
have a need to do cross-platform development.
I fully agree with that sentiment for client side projects,
but completely disagree for server side work...if the on-going
paradigm shift towards web applications lives up anywhere near
to the hype then targeting *nix from a Windows IDE could be a
tremendous advantage for a future DevCo BDS over VS...
Quote
Also, cross-platform almost by definition means a lowest common
denominator approach. To take advantage of any platform requires things
specific to it.
That has definitely been a common problem in the past but
it's not cast in stone, IMO. it is all about the implementation.
 

Re: What this mean for Borland?

Quote
I fully agree with that sentiment for client side projects,
but completely disagree for server side work...
Even then, my experience is that comparatively few people have a need to target
Quote
1 platform.
That has definitely been a common problem in the past but
it's not cast in stone, IMO. it is all about the implementation.
I would disagree - it is a general problem, rather than anything particularly to
do with any implementation. Some platforms are quite close in capabilities, but
some are miles apart.
Cheers,
Jim Cooper
_____________________________________________
Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Skype : jim.cooper
Tabdee Ltd www.tabdee.ltd.uk
TurboSync - Connecting Delphi to your Palm
_____________________________________________