Board index » delphi » Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Re: Cat among the pigeons......


2004-07-13 11:35:50 PM
delphi42
That could explain why I have only managed to get a couple of phone calls and
some emails when i was looking for a job in UK ... :D
Cristian Nicola
"Phil Shrimpton" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
In article <40f2dda4$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>,
XXXX@XXXXX.COM says...
Delphi is, and always has been, quite strong in the UK. The problem is
that the Job market is basically internal/word of mouth, and most jobs
are filled before they get a change to get advertised or passed to
agencies. The ones that do get into print are usually the lower paid /
 
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

"Graham Harris" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Just looking at the current job vacancy list for Delphi programmers (at
least in the UK) is notable by their absence So I have a few questions:

1. Is Delphi dead?

How dare you say that. I thought Delphi was selling at record high's?
Hasn't each version of delphi out-sold it is predecessor?
Steve-O
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Jeffrey writes:
Quote
I'm particularly disappointed by its so called
"visual form inheritance" which has proven (at least to me :)) to be both
buggy and cumbersome.
Yip. If you compare it to Delphi's implementation it just plain sucks! :-)
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Quote
They need to get with the program though, and pronto.
Too late for that, they already scared all potential VB(Visual Basic) devs
that didn't cheer for .Net by posting their .Net first and
foremost message all over the Delphi stuff.
Z
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Quote
Is Delphi dead?
Nope. it is still the hottest solution for creating Win32 applications,
and has the ability to port your code directly to DotNet with few
changes. Even C++ can not top that.
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

"zedd" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>They need to get with the program though, and pronto.

Too late for that, they already scared all potential VB(Visual Basic) devs
that didn't cheer for .Net by posting their .Net first and
foremost message all over the Delphi stuff.
Nope, that is not right. Maybe the situation is not clear.
What VB(Visual Basic) folks are really torqued about is the change in the *language*, not
.Net.
That change in fundamental language syntax and behavior just happened to
occur (this time, again) when they released their .Net product. The MS
Marketeers claimed (incorrectly) that the changes were due to .Net
requirements, so some folks have been confused about that and think it has
something to do with Dotnet. First, very few of the language changes have
anything to do with .Net (and those that do are understandable as valid).
What happened was that some folks in that dev group decided to "clean up the
language". MS themselves later admitted this, but the misconception lingers
that the changes were related to the .Net platform requirements. In
addition, the moniker VB.Not seems to point to anti .net... it simply means
that the product is .Not VB! Thinking more logically, if VB(Visual Basic) folks didn't
want to get to .Net do you think they would give a hoot about VB.Net one way
or the other?
Now, that is not to say that I am really a big fan of .Net. DotNet is either
the next Windows... or the next OS/2. So, I am not yet a .Net cheerleader,
but I would at least like to know that my app, written in a language proprietary
to a company launching a new strategic platform, would at least let me go in
the direction that this company is going. Think about that just a minute.
This isn't MS not taking their developers to Sun or Linux, this is MS not
taking their developers to MS! The tail is wagging the dog. Rather than a
developer tool being created for the developer customers, it is being created
to move other company products forward.
Now, back to the point: What VB(Visual Basic) devs want is a good home for their apps.
That includes a good development language that is stable enough that you
don't have to completely rewrite your apps every few years. It *also* means
a development environment that provides options to move forward to new
strategic platforms, including .Net (and WinXX and Linux, and as many others
as are commercially reasonable).
The problem right now is *not* that VB(Visual Basic) developers are pixxed at Borland over
Delphi, it is that they simply don't have a reasonable way to get here. (OK,
they're not pixxed at Borland but I will admit some of the idiotic trolls that
show up in the VB(Visual Basic) groups from time to time might get slapped)
Unfortunately for me (and maybe 6million others of us), we don't have a
reasonable way to get to VB.Net either. I am certain that MS does not have
a resolution to this up their sleeve... because they simply do not have
anybody in that group that understand VB(Visual Basic) developers (on this I have personal
knowledge, it is not speculation).
Seems to me this *could* be an opportunity for Borland. Work the numbers.
Even very low percentage success rate on developer conversion is fairly
"intere$ting".
What we're doing in our shop is trying to work a migration to Delphi...
initially D7, but with almost all of the code capable of working in Delphi 8 and
possibly Kylix. For the forseable future we will probably be Win32 as
released products, but we sure would like to think there is a future beyond
that.
Dan
MS VB(Visual Basic) MVP 1997-2001
(in the first group of 8 MVP's when the program was started)
That is, I know a little about VB(Visual Basic) devs.
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Hey Dan,
Quote
Seems to me this could be an opportunity for Borland. Work the numbers.
Even very low percentage success rate on developer conversion is fairly
"intere$ting".
You really think that market still exists? I figured that Borland blew it
'big time' when they ignored the huge potential for new customers shortly
after VB.Fred came out. I moved over about six/seven months after the great
who-ha. I actually was hoping that the outcry would have a significant effect
on VB(Visual Basic) but was hedging my bet by picking up a copy of D3Pro (c/w license) on
EBay. Once Delphi 7 came out and I upgraded I dropped the VB(Visual Basic) groups from my news
reader - haven't been back since ~ I have only got one limited use tool to
maintain with VB.
--
Dave Keighan
Posted using XanaNews 1.16.3.1
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

"Dave Keighan" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
Hey Dan,

>Seems to me this could be an opportunity for Borland. Work the
numbers.
>Even very low percentage success rate on developer conversion is fairly
>"intere$ting".

You really think that market still exists? I figured that Borland blew it
'big time' when they ignored the huge potential for new customers shortly
after VB.Fred came out.
Yes, I do. I thought most would move quickly as well, but they simply
haven't. Just look around here... only a few "out front" folks have
converted to Delphi. Few have converted to VB.Net. A very few have
converted to Java. Where do you think those 6 million developers are??
Only those who were hitting a wall of some sort, or had time to place their
own product on hold a while, made any move. For most, it turns out,
existing apps are fine just where they are (VB5 or VB6). Most people with a
serious amount of code can not "stop the merry-go-round" for a conversion and
have been willing to delay on the remote chance MS would respond to the
issue. For example, we continue to aggressively improve our own products
while exploring our options, but have not converted. But, the clock
continues to tick down on VB5/6 and it is becoming plain to everyone that the
outlook isn't going to improve. When the pressure gets high enough the
"really big" wave of developers will move and they'll go to the easiest and
most attractive route.
Quote
I moved over about six/seven months after the great
who-ha. I actually was hoping that the outcry would have a significant
effect
on VB(Visual Basic) but was hedging my bet by picking up a copy of D3Pro (c/w license)
on
EBay. Once Delphi 7 came out and I upgraded I dropped the VB(Visual Basic) groups from my news
reader - haven't been back since ~ I have only got one limited use tool to
maintain with VB.
We purposely didn't make any move, and have been working with (and against
in some cases) folks in MS to get them back on board. MS was having such a
hard time even understanding the core issue, I wrote this paper:
www.mvps.org/vb/tips/stability.htm
The target audience was some internal MS folks (including Ballmer). Note
the date on it. They read it, some understood it, all were covering their
asses. Lots of smoke, mirrors, and movement... but no progress even though
conversations have continued off and on to this day.
There is no other way to describe it except to say we have been
"spectacularly unsuccessful" in getting them to consider resolving the
issue. That "remote chance MS would respond" is coming to an end.
In the meantime, a very large portion of the "bell curve" is still out there
and many are looking for a real home. Some are actually converting to Java,
and I have seen conversion tools created for just that move. Curly braces
give me a headache<g>. Unfortunately it is harder to get here than most
would think, if you can not shut down to study and convert. Maybe you're
smarter than the average bear, or have more flexibility in your timing.
Most of us don't. If Borland want's to participate in a big way they're
going to have to help pave the way a little better.
The funny thing is, Delphi is so much like VB(Visual Basic) from the "big picture"
perspective. it is where VB(Visual Basic) folks would logically gravitate, if they could.
We'll end up doing it in our shop, but I know the community well enough to
know that most won't without it being easier. Sadly, some will give up and
fall into vFred just because somebody keeps telling them it is VB(Visual Basic) and there
are no other clear alternatives. In the next 3 years those folks will have
to rewrite their code again (again).
Dan
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Dan, thanks for the excellent response.
Quote
Just look around here... only a few "out front" folks have
converted to Delphi.
It's now that you mention it, that yea, there should be a lot more names here
that I recognize from the VB(Visual Basic) groups. Odd I didn't notice.
Quote
Maybe you're smarter than the average bear, or have
more flexibility in your timing.
I'll have to go with flexibility on this one. The actual reason is that I'm
part of 'the other big group' - the one that everyone loves to ignore - the
hobbyists. MS is making life easier for us with it is new express products but
I've got too many irons in the fire to even look at them. I wonder if there's
any of of Bill Gates and his original intent with VB(Visual Basic) still echoing around in
this? We're not (the hobbyist we) the target audience, for certain, but we'll
certainly benefit from it. It was discussed here in "Delphi 7 Lite -- Big Big
Money for Borland" I believe. We'll see where that goes. I am interested to
see if Borland will pick up the ball. it is sometimes frustrating to see
situations get passed by and not be able to figure out why that particular
business decision either wasn't presented or dropped. The opportunity that
they had with Delphi 7 (and now D8) and the VB(Visual Basic) community is classic.
Quote
Most of us don't. If Borland want's to participate in a big way they're
going to have to help pave the way a little better.
Here's hoping they do and they do it in a big way. The additional security in
Delphi, that every customer brings, can only help ensure it is future.
Quote
The funny thing is, Delphi is so much like VB(Visual Basic) from the "big picture"
perspective. it is where VB(Visual Basic) folks would logically gravitate, if they could.
You know, I didn't find the transition as easy as everyone said it'd be.
Perhaps the road to C# or Java would have been much worse. Maybe I am just a
slow learner - the road to VB6 started with QBasic, VB-DOS, ... and sloped
up from there. Every-time I got close to the goal posts a new version would
come out and I would be back at the 25 yard line :)
Quote
We'll end up doing it in our shop, but I know the community well enough to
know that most won't without it being easier. Sadly, some will give up and
fall into vFred just because somebody keeps telling them it is VB(Visual Basic) and there
are no other clear alternatives. In the next 3 years those folks will have
to rewrite their code again (again).
Let's hope they get the break they need from somewhere.
Thanks for the chat Dan. I enjoyed it immensely ... as usual.
Best of luck,
--
Dave Keighan
Posted using XanaNews 1.16.3.1
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Quote
What VB(Visual Basic) folks are really torqued about is the change in the *language*, not
.Net.
Not that much, maybe early on, but not that much anymore.
And going to Delphi gives them even _more_ language changes,
and moves them into a language with a dwindling audience (and dwindling
job market for certain), that doesn't even have any comparable
documentation and reference exemples in the .Net world.
VB.Net is a lot closer to VB(Visual Basic) than Delphi is, and IMHO it is a lot
closer to Delphi than C# is.
Quote
DotNet is either the next Windows... or the next OS/2.
That's a fundamental misconception often repeated.
DotNet is a _runtime_, accept it as this and it will serve you well.
It's not, and never has been pitted by Micorsoft as an OS layer,
only as an API layer. As detailed in numerous MSDN articles,
it's a glue between components, drivers and services, and that's
_very_ different from being an OS layer. That it is installed with
the OS doesn't make it an OS layer, just like notepad isn't an
OS layer.
Quote
Rather than a developer tool being created for the developer customers,
it's being created to move other company products forward.
Fair enough, but isn't it time for this?
UI wise we're now "good enough" for the users, it is time to make it good
enough for the devs too. Delphi tried to be that, but Borland never managed
to deliver it to the masses. Sun had more success, but now it is MS's turn
to try to deliver.
Quote
Unfortunately for me (and maybe 6million others of us),
According to estimates based on Borland revenues, that makes you at the very
least ten times more numerous than Delphi users, probably closer to twenty
if your 6 million figure isn't inflated.
Quote
we don't have a reasonable way to get to VB.Net either.
It's not so hard, VB(Visual Basic) to VB.net isn't harder than going from
Delphi 7 to Delphi.Net, and writing code that runs in the Delphi 7 and D8
is going to be {*word*99}py code for one of the two, as the "good practices"
are quite different for Delphi 7 and D8.
Quote
because they simply do not have anybody in that group that understand
VB developers (on this I have personal knowledge, it is not speculation).
I could say the same for Delphi and Borland, Borland even went as fas as
officially pushing us into the arms of MS.Net.
Going Visual Studio after that is just the most natural step.
Quote
Seems to me this *could* be an opportunity for Borland. Work the numbers.
Even very low percentage success rate on developer conversion is fairly
"intere$ting".
Borland isn't interested in converting, as far as I could see, they just hope
to milk the cow and keep whatever customers they have. The way Delphi 8 crippled
the language and Borland yet trumpeted it was progress is proof enough.
There were two sides to Delphi: the so-called "DB weenies", that write basic
stuff, and for which VB.Net is a perfect alternative, and the "hard core"
crowd, which is the one that brought Delphi it is components, libraries
and all third-party stuff that made it into the equal of C++ for most tasks,
and that side has been almost wiped out of Delphi.Net.
IMO most Delphi developpers were standing in-between, doing RAD stuff,
yet content to have powerful libs, and that made Delphi _the_ sweet spot.
Quote
What we're doing in our shop is trying to work a migration to Delphi...
initially D7, but with almost all of the code capable of working in Delphi 8 and
possibly Kylix.
I don't think that is wise, and we're doing just the opposit here.
Z
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

zedd writes:
Quote
>What VB(Visual Basic) folks are really torqued about is the change in the
>*language*, not .Net.

Not that much, maybe early on, but not that much anymore.

>Unfortunately for me (and maybe 6million others of us),

>we don't have a reasonable way to get to VB.Net either.

It's not so hard, VB(Visual Basic) to VB.net isn't harder than going from
Delphi 7 to Delphi.Net, and writing code that runs in the Delphi 7 and D8
is going to be {*word*99}py code for one of the two, as the "good practices"
are quite different for Delphi 7 and D8.
First off, I am not a "Delphi is Dying" advocate but do subscribe to the
"Delphi is now Less Fashionable" school.
Popular development tools just don't roll over and die. Heck, I still have
avid Clipper programmer friends who support and even write compilers for
Clipper. And I remember how painful it was for me to convert from DOS and
Clipper to Windows and Delphi, way back then John Kaster was developing a
Clipper->Delphi conversion tool.
For Delphi to have a "Vibrant Fashionable Future" it needs to attract a
steady stream of new users but it seems to me that this is much harder to do
now than in the past. Converting a vast horde of unwashed VB(Visual Basic) programmers has
always been a glimmer of hope but it seems that Borland management has never
been willing to spend the large amount of resources necessary to convince VB
developers to make the switch. With some 1/4 billion dollars of cash
invested in low yield short term securities when .NET came on to the scene,
they had the necessary funds but not the willingness to take the risk and
make the effort.
I can not confirm the numbers quoted below but they do seem to be
directionally correct. From these figures one could infer that between 1/3
to 1/2 of the pool of VB(Visual Basic) developers have already been converted to VB.NET.
That represents a lot of momentum that will be hard to slow down. That train
has already left the station!
With the new low (possibly no) cost Express editions of VS.NET it would seem
that another avenue of new Delphi users (hobbyist) has been preempted by
Microsoft without a strong response so far from Borland.
--Hairy <Momma always said listen to the ranting silent majority>
sellsbrothers.com/news/showTopic.aspx
/quote
JohnMont (who oughta know) provided these numbers today as "quotable and
public" so I thought I would:
a.. There are ~6M professional developers worldwide, about 90% of whom
target Windows
b.. There are about 2.5M .NET developers
c..>60 of the Fortune 100 develop using .NET
d.. Forrester says that 56% of enterprises in North America are choosing
.NET for their development requirements vs. 44% choosing J2EE
According the legend (JohnMont didn't comment on this part), 4-5M of those
6M developers targeting Windows are Visual Basic developers, which means
that if they ever get tired of being made fun of by the C family of
developers, we're going to be trapped in phone booths while they descend on
us like the birds in an Alfred Hitchcock movie...
/end quote
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Quote
With the new low (possibly no) cost Express editions of VS.NET it would seem
that another avenue of new Delphi users (hobbyist) has been preempted by
Microsoft without a strong response so far from Borland.
Borland abandonned hobbyists, students and those that "test grounds first"
when they prevented commercial use with the _paying_ Delphi 6 and Delphi 7 standard
editions (as if removing DB capability wasn't enough of a cripple for
professional use), many are thus stikcing to D5, which is aging, and when
they look at alternatives, they look elsewhere.
They dealt it another blow when they decided not to make a standard
D8 edition at all.
This amounts a lot IMHO to the decline of Delphi, some may prefer it when
only the hard core remain, but without a strong hype and community of
youngsters to support it, Delphi will become grandpa's language and that
will be it.
Z
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Harry Van Tassell writes:
Quote

I can not confirm the numbers quoted below but they do seem to be
directionally correct. From these figures one could infer that
between 1/3 to 1/2 of the pool of VB(Visual Basic) developers have already been
converted to VB.NET. That represents a lot of momentum that will be
hard to slow down. That train has already left the station!
Here is an additional data point some may find of interest. Somehow I am just
reluctant to accept the idea of those who post on this ng that to date, .NET
hasn't made a splash or even a ripple in the Windows pond. In the recent
past I have seen references to 70 million computers that have the .NET
framework installed but until now couldn't attribute that number to any
creditable source.
Question - is 70 million enough to be judged a ripple?<g>
This leaves me wondering what will be the effect when .NET version 2 becomes
available in a few months. It will start with being used on web servers to
make the features of ASP.NET version 2 available, it is expected that the
next beta version will include an early release license that will enable
ASP.NET users to install and use the beta on their commercial web servers.
But more intriguing is how long will it take to build enough momentum for
version 2 WinForm applications to become a reality.
--Hairy <Momma always said the road to success is littered with the bodies
of pioneers and heroes>
blogs.msdn.com/somasegar/archive/2004/06/03/148131.aspx
/quote
We have seen over 70 million downloads of the .NET framework from Windows
Update and the Microsoft Download center to date. For a simple guy like me,
that translates to about 5.5 million downloads a month. Another interesting
datapoint is that in 2004, we expect to have about 54 million new PCs
shipping with the .NET framework installed/preloaded. We also have over
2.5M developers targeting managed code.
/end quote
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Dan Barclay writes:
Quote

The funny thing is, Delphi is so much like VB(Visual Basic) from the "big picture"
perspective. it is where VB(Visual Basic) folks would logically gravitate, if they
could.
Dan --
You clearly do understand the VB(Visual Basic) community -- what can we as Delphi
community members do to help evangelize these disaffected VB(Visual Basic) developers?
--
Nick Hodges -- TeamB
Lemanix Corporation -- www.lemanix.com
Read my Blog -- www.lemanix.com/nick
 

Re: Cat among the pigeons......

Craig Stuntz [TeamB] writes:
Quote
He's looking for tools and
documents to make the technical side of his migration smooth.
I'm not sure that this is an answer to what I was asking -- maybe I am
asking poorly. If we assume that such tools and documents exist, then
how can we as a community go about getting those items into the hands
of VB(Visual Basic) developers, so that they might be interested in Delphi? What
actions can we take to make this happen?
For instance, I am getting involved with the local INETA group here in
the Twin Cities. I plan on pushing to have one meeting cover Delphi,
and how it is a good path to .Net from Win32. I don't know what the
reaction will be, but it can not hurt to ask.
What other things like this might we all do the help the cause?
--
Nick Hodges -- TeamB
Lemanix Corporation -- www.lemanix.com
Read my Blog -- www.lemanix.com/nick