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Re: So, how's D2007?


2007-03-20 04:45:35 AM
delphi163
Thanks for the response. I seemed to have derailed the topic by
complainin' about SA. I guess I and others have done enough of that
in other threads, so, I am right now more interested in user experience
with Delphi 2007 vs D2006 + SP2 + hotfixes. Thanks.
Quote
well, overall it is a enhanced version of D2006:

- IDE clean and FAST
- rock reliable
- little faster executables (thanks to polished RTL by FastCode and Pierre)
- dbexpress is very FAST (I did a test with mysql and 2msec stress test
result on simple queries)
- ajax for visual jscript is a plus
- help system works good and it is detailed
- I miss only generics

overall seems to me the best delphi done til now
 
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

"Jolyon Smith" wrote
Quote

More like protection money: Buy SA or you will be sorry.
Not sure what you seem to find so threatening about SA. If you want it, get
it; if you don't, don't.
bobD
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Steve Thackery writes:
Quote
If CodeGear do come out with another killer upgrade to the Win32
functionality, then I will evaluate the situation then. It is possible
I'll come out worse off, by buying two upgrades in the year instead
of one upgrade with SA, but on balance I doubt it.
I would suggest you try and add SA to your purchase. It sounds like
Highlander will have some more nice Win32 stuff included and there were
posts in this group somewhere indicating it was coming out in Q2/Q3
2007.
Cheers
Dean
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Quote
I'm cynical and skeptical. I have BDS2006. While I can not say
it is an entire waste of money(.NET part was), I need a damn
faster system to run BDS2006. Also I still would've
preferred a better help system. I am getting a very bad feeling
that BDS2006 is going to be stuck with its pathetic excuse of
a help system. CG's gonna be pushing BDS2007 soon. Why
bother with BDS2006's help? (Reminds me of Kylix 1 and Kylix
2.)
Agreed.
I hope that at the very least, the Delphi 2007 help is published on the web.
Cheers,
Chris
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

In article <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Bob Dawson says...
Quote
"Jolyon Smith" wrote
>
>More like protection money: Buy SA or you will be sorry.

Not sure what you seem to find so threatening about SA. If you want it, get
it; if you don't, don't.
Who said threatening?
Nick has said often times in a variety of different ways "You would be
better of with SA"
He's never managed to elucidate precisely why or how, and with no
guaranteed return for your money, this is not that different from when
Knuckles McThumper comes into your store:
Knuckles: "You better give me Mr Big's money"
Shop-owner: "Why?"
Knuckles: "You'll be better off if you do"
Shop-owner: "How?"
Knuckles: "Just trust me - it is in your own best interests"
Of course, the comparison is not meant to be entirely serious, but the
comparison to CodeGear SA is closer than that with an insurance policy,
which does, as mentioned, have quantified and guaranteed benefits known
at the time of premium payment.
SA has no such redeeming qualities. It is a gamble pure and simple.
But I don't find it threatening any more than I find Extended Warranties
on fridges and dishwashers threatening, or lottery tickets, or the
Melbourne Cup/Grand National.
All of which have lots in common with CodeGear SA as currently offered.
;)
For anyone wondering what the problem is with SA, I make this offer:
Send me $100 and you can have a copy of any software I release in the
next 12 months and the right to send me another $100 next year.
Can't say fairer than that guv. Email me for my bank details so you can
send me your first Jolyon SA payment. Shall I warn my ISP to be prepared
for a flood of such emails?
What's that? You don't know what software I am going to release or if
it's going to be of any interest to you?
Pssst - same goes for CodeGear SA, and my SA deal is cheaper!
;)
--
Jolyon Smith
WHILE INKEY$ WEND
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

"Jolyon Smith" wrote
Quote

SA has no such redeeming qualities. It is a gamble pure and simple.
No, it is a long term strategy to make my purchases from CodeGear predictable
from a budgetting perspective, and cheaper over the long term. Both of which
it easily acomplishes.
Quote
What's that? You don't know what software I am going to release or if
it's going to be of any interest to you?

Pssst - same goes for CodeGear SA, and my SA deal is cheaper!
No, actually, the same doesn't go for CodeGear at all. I make a living in
software development, primarily using CodeGear tools. When you have a track
record of providing tools that put food on my table more effectively than
anything else I could buy, I will surely take you up on your offer. For the
moment, however, using Delphi pays my bills, and it is no gamble whatsoever
to think I will still want to be using it next year.
The only question people considering SA need to ask themselves is whether
they see themselves continuing to use Delphi in the next 3+ years. If so,
then SA makes solid economic sense--and that has nothing whatsoever to do
with whether anything happens to be released in the next 12 months. What is
does have to do with is a sense of professional identity--with me knowing
what my own preferences as a developer are, and committing to the tools that
have consistently provided the best working experience and ROI of any I've
used.
bobD
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

In article <45ff2a8a$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Bob Dawson says...
Quote
"Jolyon Smith" wrote
>
>SA has no such redeeming qualities. It is a gamble pure and simple.

No, it is a long term strategy to make my purchases from CodeGear predictable
from a budgetting perspective, and cheaper over the long term. Both of which
it easily acomplishes.
You simply do not and cannot know that it will achieve those things.
Quote
>What's that? You don't know what software I am going to release or if
>it's going to be of any interest to you?
>
>Pssst - same goes for CodeGear SA, and my SA deal is cheaper!

No, actually, the same doesn't go for CodeGear at all. I make a living in
software development, primarily using CodeGear tools. When you have a track
record of providing tools that put food on my table more effectively than
anything else I could buy, I will surely take you up on your offer.
Why? You're not buying a track record, you're buying future software
updates, from a company currently unwilling or unable to give any clear
indication of what future software products they will be offering let
alone actually delivering or when.
But let's accept for sake of argument that you are buying a track
record? Whose track record? CodeGear have no history apart from that
which they inherit from Borland.
D4, D6, D8, BDS 2005 ...
A more recent track record? How about selling a product at one target
group then retrospectively and unilaterally redefining that target group
to exclude people that the product was specifically marketted at.
Are these the things you hold up as justifying belief in their track
record?
Quote
it's no gamble whatsoever
to think I will still want to be using it next year.
It's a gamble to expect that the version you will be using next year
will not be the one you are using now.
Quote
The only question people considering SA need to ask themselves is whether
they see themselves continuing to use Delphi in the next 3+ years.
No, that is not the question at all. The question is whether they will
blindly and without question upgrade to every new version that comes
along as soon as it is released.
If the answer to that question is "Yes" then SA makes sense. No
argument.
But if the answer is "No, I will look at each release and decide whether
it's worth while for me at that time or some future point to upgrade"
then SA -might- be worth while, but it might not.
Quote
What is
does have to do with is a sense of professional identity
Is it an economic argument or an emotional one?
You can not have it both ways.
--
Jolyon Smith
WHILE INKEY$ WEND
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Chris Morgan writes:
Quote
>I'm cynical and skeptical. I have BDS2006. While I can not say
>it is an entire waste of money(.NET part was), I need a damn
>faster system to run BDS2006. Also I still would've
>preferred a better help system. I am getting a very bad feeling
>that BDS2006 is going to be stuck with its pathetic excuse of
>a help system. CG's gonna be pushing BDS2007 soon. Why
>bother with BDS2006's help? (Reminds me of Kylix 1 and Kylix
>2.)

Agreed.
I hope that at the very least, the Delphi 2007 help is published on the web.

Cheers,

Chris
Having an easier time of making doc online was one of the reasons we
went for Doc-O-Matic, it produces a number of outputs that can help us
achieve that goal.
There is currently no plan to update the BSD 2006 help since it relied
on a completely different and fragile build system.
However, I will look into if you can unregister BDS2006 help and register
BDS2007 help for BDS2006. That would still be a large step forward and
seems fairly straight forward.
--
Chris Pattinson
CodeGear QA Manager, Delphi/C++ Developer Studio
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Chris Pattinson (CodeGear) writes:
Quote

Having an easier time of making doc online was one of the reasons we
went for Doc-O-Matic, it produces a number of outputs that can help us
achieve that goal.

There is currently no plan to update the BSD 2006 help since it relied
on a completely different and fragile build system.
Ouch. I suppose trying to convert this 'different and fragile build'
system to the 'Doc-O-Matic' (is this from ACME?) is out of the question?
So once again Borland dropped the ball with a product. Sure, hind sight
is 20/20; but come on, don't tell me the Borland beta-testers DIDN'T
test out the help system?
Quote

However, I will look into if you can unregister BDS2006 help and register
BDS2007 help for BDS2006. That would still be a large step forward and
seems fairly straight forward.

True, but then the BDS2007 help will be referring to stuff not present
in BDS2006, which isn't any better.
Edmund
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

"Chris Pattinson (CodeGear)" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

There is currently no plan to update the BSD 2006 help since it relied
on a completely different and fragile build system.

When is the penny going to drop with you guys? (CodeGear that is - not you
personally - I have been generally impressed by your contributions) If
CodeGear continues Borland's bad habits of abandoning a product version the
minute a new one appears, then CodeGear is not going to fare any better as a
successful developer tools vendor. Actually, the current situation is even
worse - Delphi 2007 is nowhere near a complete replacement for BDS 2006.
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

"Jolyon Smith" wrote
Quote
>
>No, it is a long term strategy to make my purchases from CodeGear
>predictable from a budgetting perspective, and cheaper over the long
>term. Both of which it easily acomplishes.

You simply do not and cannot know that it will achieve those things.
I do not know that I will survive the night. that is doesn't make buying coffee
to brew a significant risk. I already know I like coffee.
Quote
But let's accept for sake of argument that you are buying a track
record? Whose track record? CodeGear have no history apart
from that which they inherit from Borland.
There is the track record of the individuals involved, my own personal
estimation of their talent and opinions based on years of interaction, and
my evaluation of their motivation and stated intentions.
Quote
A more recent track record? How about selling a product at one target
group then retrospectively and unilaterally redefining that target group
to exclude people that the product was specifically marketted at.
I see no reason to debate your distorted sense of history. The people I was
paying attention to (Nick, Michael, Alan, among others) did everything they
could to make clear that the Turbo line was NOT Delphi's update path, nor
was I ever once tempted to buy it.
Quote
It's a gamble to expect that the version you will be using next year
will not be the one you are using now.
Again, in absolute terms it is a gamble I will survive the night. But if I do,
it's a relatively safe bet that CodeGear understands that they have to ship
good product to people like me prosper. I have made worse bets in my time. <g>
Quote
But if the answer is "No, I will look at each release and decide whether
it's worth while for me at that time or some future point to upgrade"
then SA -might- be worth while, but it might not.
I think that is the sort of thinking that an occupational developer has to
face, and why the Turbo line has to stay fairly light and cheap. In my
experience, however, my time is more expensive than my tools--I can not afford
to stagnate or do things the hard way because I am too cheap to buy what I
need. So yes, as the market evolves I will update my tools and skills to
adapt, and no, that is not a decision I have to anguish much about. My tool
costs under SA are very low compared to my income, so I appear to be making
the right choices.
Quote
>What it
>does have to do with is a sense of professional identity

Is it an economic argument or an emotional one?
It's a reality based argument: I am a professional developer, and I respect
myself and my time enough to want to work with the best tools I can get. And
I spend more on training and books than I do on my tools.
But that is just me. If someone really needs to moan about the cost of pro
license update every four or five years, that is their perogative. We just
don't have much in common.
bobD
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

We continue to patch and hotfix releases after we release a major version.
At some point, we have to branch for the next major version and after that
point we still continue to release patches and hotfixes, but as move forward
on the new branch somethings we can patch and hotfix in the old ver, which
we've continued to do throughout the entire Delphi 2007 development phase
even as recently as this month - when we were heads down working on Delphi
2007 we rolled back fixes for 2006 into hotfix 11, and somethings we can't
or aren't practical or wise to tackle. Some things require interface
changes, deep changes, or rearchitecture that would otherwise destabilize
the older release. Fortunately after the first 1 or 2 hotfixes we usually
have hit the most important things so fixes in subsequent fixes usually are
less and less critical items so that when we are releasing the next major
version we hope to have addressed the most important issues.
To date we've had 11 hotfix updates for D2006.
"Chris Burrows" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
"Chris Pattinson (CodeGear)" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
news:45ff26a2$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
>
>There is currently no plan to update the BSD 2006 help since it relied
>on a completely different and fragile build system.
>

When is the penny going to drop with you guys? (CodeGear that is - not you
personally - I have been generally impressed by your contributions) If
CodeGear continues Borland's bad habits of abandoning a product version
the minute a new one appears, then CodeGear is not going to fare any
better as a successful developer tools vendor. Actually, the current
situation is even worse - Delphi 2007 is nowhere near a complete replacement for
BDS 2006.

--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp



 

Re: So, how's D2007?

In article <45ff4ca6$XXXX@XXXXX.COM>, Bob Dawson says...
Quote
"Jolyon Smith" wrote
>>
>>No, it is a long term strategy to make my purchases from CodeGear
>>predictable from a budgetting perspective, and cheaper over the long
>>term. Both of which it easily acomplishes.
>
>You simply do not and cannot know that it will achieve those things.

I do not know that I will survive the night. that is doesn't make buying coffee
to brew a significant risk. I already know I like coffee.
Soooo..., you know you like coffee. Great. Do you -know- that you will
like BDS2007?
Ans: No
You think you might. You might even think that you will. But you don't
know. Even if you DO like it, you cannot know that it will be of
sufficient quality to be of any use to you, and you do not know when you
will be getting it.
Just a few of the reasons that your analogy doesn't really stack up.
;)
Quote
There is the track record of the individuals involved, my own personal
estimation of their talent and opinions based on years of interaction, and
my evaluation of their motivation and stated intentions.
Ah, so after all, it is a vote of confidence and an expression of faith,
not the absolute, evidence based economic argument we started with?
;)
Quote
I see no reason to debate your distorted sense of history.
*MY* distorted sense of history? that is rich.
What I described is *exactly* what happened. The only people trying to
distort history are the people you listed, and in whom you express such
faith.
Weird.
Quote
it's a relatively safe bet that CodeGear understands that they have to ship
good product to people like me prosper.
Not with SA they don't - with SA CodeGear take your money (kerching)
without committing to anything concrete and if you complain that you
didn't get value or that quality was not up to scratch you will be re-
assured that SA is a long term bet.
In fact, you seem to have bought into that particular philosophy already
(kerching - kerching).
Do people stop buying lottery tickets just because they don't win?
Why are CodeGear so mad keen for everyone to take up SA? Because they
care about saving their customers money? By which we must mean, because
they don't want to make as much money from their customers as possible?
Quote
In my
experience, however, my time is more expensive than my tools--I can not afford
to stagnate or do things the hard way because I am too cheap to buy what I
need.
It's typically precisely the individual developers/hobbyists etc that
can afford to take a flyer with every new release because they typically
don't have a raft of legacy apps to worry about.
Doing things the "hard way" conceivably could include blindly upgrading
to each new release of tools and having to deal with the issues that
each new version introduces at a time when the community has not
developed solutions. Rather than sticking with tried and known
technology.
Which, ime, is what the majority of larger, more invested development
shops *have* to do. They cannot afford the time required to keep up to
date.
Sure, the bean counters will approve an annual SA committment without
batting an eye-lid, but that doesn't mean that the boxes will ever be
opened by the practitioners.
I've seen plenty of departmental cupboards filled with literally
unopened Delphi 6, 7, 8, BDS 2005 and BDS 2006 boxes while their
applications continue to be developed and supported in Delphi 5.0, while
the same people working with Delphi 5 at their office desks go *home* to
play with the latest greatest tools.
Quote
so I appear to be making
the right choices.
Good for you. And we can extrapolate from your one case that those are
also the right choices for everyone else too?
Quote
But that is just me. If someone really needs to moan about the cost of pro
license update every four or five years, that is their perogative.
!?
--
Jolyon Smith
WHILE INKEY$ WEND
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

"Dave Nottage [TeamB]" wrote
Quote

Apparently you've experienced something entirely different to what you
know you have.

Either that, or you have a split personality and are arguing with
yourself.
Lost me, sorry.
bobD
 

Re: So, how's D2007?

Bob Dawson writes:
Quote
There is the track record of the individuals involved, my own
personal estimation of their talent and opinions based on years of
interaction, and my evaluation of their motivation and stated
intentions.
Apparently you've experienced something entirely different to what you
know you have.
Either that, or you have a split personality and are arguing with
yourself.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]