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.NET & Java(Not accurate Information).


2005-05-21 03:10:06 AM
delphi122
Hi,
Is really dificult to get real and trustable Information about the growing of these two plataforms.
By what Im reading here and there I think .NET is growing much more in the USA than in the rest of the world.
Here in Brazil Java still dominates,Delphi development is restrict to maitain the Application already made.
iT Seems that the market is sleeping and waiting to see what is going to happen.
There is a 'general concern' that .NET is easier and that Java is cheaper and there is no much technological advantages in one or in another.
The curious thing is that the average salary of a Java Programmer is higher than the ones paid for .NET programmers .
Delphi Programmers are earning even less.
IBM is trying to Monopolizate all Java development,They hire people for a small salary and charge a lot of the customers,
They say By choosing IBM you will assure you will have software compliant to CMM.
These profissionals dont have any rights at all.
If youre sick than bye,bye.
It seems that a lot of the software that is being produced here
will be used in U.S.A or Europe.
It seems that the 'globalization' will mean cheaper software and poorer programmers.
Im planning to start studying Java(For a long Time),Fortunatelly I have a lot of Delphi Code To Mantain ,and I still work in a company with Rights.
But I'd like my soon(If i have one one day) to choose another profission.
I know that this message will probably be followed by dozens saying You Brazilians and Indians are prostituing coding and bla bla bla.
And Unfortunatelly i have to agree with that,Brazilians sometimes seems to have water in his body in the place of {*word*76}.
In some years probably will be working for a piece of Bread and a cup of water.
Marcello Dias
 
 

Re:.NET & Java(Not accurate Information).

"Marcello Dias" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

Hi,

Is really dificult to get real and trustable Information about the growing
of these two plataforms.

By what Im reading here and there I think .NET is growing much more in
the USA than in the rest of the world.

Net is growing only in MS centric shops. Not large Enterprise development
shops, where Unix, Windows, Mac, and S390 and/or S400s are also in use. Here
Java still rules.
Quote
Here in Brazil Java still dominates,Delphi development is restrict to
maitain the Application already made.

I think that this would be true in the US as well.
Quote
iT Seems that the market is sleeping and waiting to see what is going to
happen.

There is a 'general concern' that .NET is easier and that Java is cheaper
and there is no much technological advantages in one or in another.

That is really an a true/untrue assumption. Java is not more difficult than
NET if you want to compare apples to apples. However, some projects seek to
make Java more difficult to use than it has to be. Java has many more
options for Enterprise type development than Net and covers a much broader
area than Net. Brief explanation of what I mean below.
If you restrict Java to JSP/Servlet development, as NET is pretty much
restricted to, then I'd say NET and Java are close to being equal in
ease of use or complexity (take your pick :)). If however, you want to
extend Java development to take advantage of the Enterprise features (like
Messaging Services, Enterprise Remote Object calls to an EJB, JMS, or RMI
repository), as well as making native OS calls, then yes Java becomes much
more difficult. However, none of these features are available in NET (except
the native OS call portions,and these are pretty much restricted to MS
only).
Intranet/Extranet/Internet wise, Net is primarily for ASP/ISAPI replacement.
It does use the concepts made popular in Java (auto garbage collection, JIT,
fully OO, etc), but it is still a target for the MS OSes and devices that
use MS OS exlusively. Mono is trying to make their version as compatible as
possible, but since MS does not release the source to the actual underlying
CLR, this makes it difficult to ensure that other NET implementations are
compatible (aka MS NET verses Mono/Gnu). Most feel (myself included) that
Mono will eventually have its own NET version and MS their own. Some
compatibility, but not full compatibility as per the aforementioned reasons.
MS has no desire to aid support for anything other than Microsoft itself.
Java however targets everything. Java does not care whether you are
developing for Windows, Unix, Mac, or a large S390 system. It does not care
if the device is (Palm, etc), is running Windows or something else. That
naturally means that to support this level of abstraction, there is a
trade-off in complexity. Thus the real assumption that Java is, in some
cases, more difficult than NET if you take into account these
considerations and take advantage of the xplatform features of Java fully.
If you are going to create GUI apps, then NET is easier, for the reasons
listed above. You cannot ensure that a NET developed app will even run on
anything other than Windows, unless you are using Mono.NET. Then, you may
ensure some xplatform use. Java however, again is designed to be platform
agnostic. Therefore since pixel arrangement on Windows is different than
pixel arrangement on XWindows, or Mac, GUI development is much more complex.
The event model listeners are also different between Java and NET. This does
add degrees of complexity for a well performing Java GUI. Thread management
of each is pretty easy, but understanding the Listeners in Java requires
more knowlegde than in NET.
Quote
The curious thing is that the average salary of a Java Programmer is
higher than the ones paid for .NET programmers .
Delphi Programmers are earning even less.

That is usually because Java programmers have to understand more about
Enterprise wide development than their NET counterparts. That is because
Java integration with Systems from Oracle to PeopleSoft to SAP support
native Java APIs, plus Java supports Remote Objects that can be clustered
and shared without special server side setups.
Java developers, as well, usually have knowledge of more than one OS. It is
not uncommon for Java developers to be familiar with Windows and Unix
environments, know how to create Windows services as well as Unix Cron jobs,
batch operational scripts, etc. Database wise, they are able to make Stored
Procs in serveral databases (since most RDMS systems outside of MS, support
Java native Stored Proc, Trigger and even cluster native binding, like
Oracle and DB/2), using Java directly. Most Enterprise devices (Cisco
routers, Medical and Machinery type equipment, firewall devices, etc), have
Java interfaces. Most do not have NET interfaces.
If NET developers have equal knoweldge, they probably are a rarity (unless
they are coming from the C/C++ world), and they will probably demand equal
salary. Shortage of either NET or Java, coupled with demand, will drive the
market in the end.
Quote

It seems that the 'globalization' will mean cheaper software and poorer
programmers.

I agree.
 

Re:.NET & Java(Not accurate Information).

Hi Marcello,
Wow, you are having a tough day for sure.
I like the part where you say "The curious thing is that the average salary
of a Java Programmer is higher than the ones paid for .NET programmers
.Delphi Programmers are earning even less.".
Thats typical, people just doesn't realize that Delphi does .Net, lots of
times current companies using Delphi look for other options cause they dont
know that Delphi can take them to the .Net world. For them .net means C#.
(VB in some weird cases)
I take my time to explain to whoever i know in a company that uses Delphi
that there is no need to invest more money, time, and trainning to go to the
.net path. Delphi is there. Sometimes, and i noticed here in the forums,
we tend to be too critical, complaining about EVERYTHING, sometimes i just
hope that its only in this forum that we talk like that, and not in regular
tech talk or workplaces. It just doesnt help a great community like this
one.
I came to my current job, to work on a small Delphi project, all the rest of
projects were MS C++ / VB(Visual Basic) related, it took me a full year to show slowly how
productive Delphi was and to explain the good stuff on it, now finally i had
their eyes turned to it, and more projects are being develop on it.
If Borland is not doing a great job in adverti{*word*224}t, do the adverti{*word*224}t
yourself. Look for Delphi User groups around your area, find out when they
have meetings, invite people from other projects to it, your project
managers, etc, let them try a little of Delphi here and there.
Show them the hundreds of components and third party products out there
ready for us, bring up some of those BDN tech articles, print them out, give
them away, etc. Give links with BDN TV Episodes, do it as a new different
tech lover approach, not as a MS hater.
Spend some time helping others in the other borland.public newsgroups, make
the other Delphi programmers feel that they are not alone.
Join Developer forums and include your opinion giving away segments of code
written in Delphi, solutions talking about Delphi and so on.
Delphi developers are not a few, there are THOUSANDS out there, lets keep
working on this number so it can keep growing.
You may not win, i agree, but at least you can tell that you did your fair
amount of work to push for what you think was the right technical solution.
I still considered Delphi superior to most things out there and cause of
that, im sticking with it.
I believe in the people who is standing in Borland to make it better, they
will make errors, but who doesn't, they will try to fix them in a hurry to
help us all and make some more, but who doesn't.
I think i moved away from the topic, but, i just wanted to express what i've
noticed browsing around this forums for a while now.
Thanks.
Esteban Pacheco
estebanp.blogspot.com
"Marcello Dias" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote

Hi,

Is really dificult to get real and trustable Information about the growing
of these two plataforms.

By what Im reading here and there I think .NET is growing much more in
the USA than in the rest of the world.

Here in Brazil Java still dominates,Delphi development is restrict to
maitain the Application already made.

iT Seems that the market is sleeping and waiting to see what is going to
happen.

There is a 'general concern' that .NET is easier and that Java is cheaper
and there is no much technological advantages in one or in another.

The curious thing is that the average salary of a Java Programmer is
higher than the ones paid for .NET programmers .
Delphi Programmers are earning even less.


IBM is trying to Monopolizate all Java development,They hire people for a
small salary and charge a lot of the customers,
They say By choosing IBM you will assure you will have software compliant
to CMM.
These profissionals dont have any rights at all.
If youre sick than bye,bye.
It seems that a lot of the software that is being produced here
will be used in U.S.A or Europe.

It seems that the 'globalization' will mean cheaper software and poorer
programmers.

Im planning to start studying Java(For a long Time),Fortunatelly I have a
lot of Delphi Code To Mantain ,and I still work in a company with Rights.
But I'd like my soon(If i have one one day) to choose another
profission.

I know that this message will probably be followed by dozens saying You
Brazilians and Indians are prostituing coding and bla bla bla.
And Unfortunatelly i have to agree with that,Brazilians sometimes seems to
have water in his body in the place of {*word*76}.
In some years probably will be working for a piece of Bread and a cup of
water.

Marcello Dias
 

Re:.NET & Java(Not accurate Information).

Quote
It seems that the 'globalization' will meancheaper software and poorer programmers.
Or more generic: cheaper products and poorer workers.
Kevin
--
Software for resource managers and researchers
www.ecostats.com
 

Re:.NET & Java(Not accurate Information).

Esteban Pacheco writes:
Quote
That's typical, people just doesn't realize that Delphi does .Net, lots of
times current companies using Delphi look for other options cause they don't
know that Delphi can take them to the .Net world. For them .net means C#.
(VB in some weird cases)
I fear this will continue to be the case in the .Net sphere for Delphi.
IMO, it can not get by on being simply /as good/ as the M$ competition, or
even 5 - 10% better. It has to offer something /substantially/ better
than the alternatives the way it did (and continues to do) in the native
space. A Pascal flavoured version of what Visual C# offers just does not
cut it. However, there is /some/ room for maneuver here in the time before
Longhorn and Avalon rear their heads...
 

Re:.NET & Java(Not accurate Information).

Hi GUYS,
Thank You for all your answers.
I could not reply on the weekend.
Marcello