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Is anybody using ECO?


2006-06-07 02:37:20 PM
delphi263
Hi everyone,
we started a new project a month ago and we decided to use ECO.
Unfortunately we are coming to the following conclusion: ECO is more a beta
project than a tool itself.
Very often we get stuck in a new problem. If you try to do anything without
using the autoforms, like adding a simple custom database-like grid, you
come to nightmare. It seems that ECO implements very well the business
rules, but turning this to a GUI makes you lost all the time you've gained
before. And the worst is that, there is so little activity on the newsgroup
and so few documentation that it seems that we are the only ones using it.
Does anybody knows anybody that made a sucessful ECO project (not just a
silly example)? Am I being to pessimist?
Regards,
Bruno
 
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Bruno Marotta writes:
Quote
..it seems that we are the only ones using it.
These links might help (as a start)
bdn.borland.com/delphi/eco
www.malcolmgroves.com/categories/eco/index.html
www.droopyeyes.com/default.asp
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Quote
and so few documentation that it seems that we are the only ones using it.
Then it seems you do not actually read the small amount of traffic in the
ECO newsgroup :-)
I for one wrote howtodothings.com in ECO, it was a very popular site too.
So popular in fact that somebody approached my with a financial offer that
was high enough to persuade me to part with it. They rewrote it in PHP
because that is what they are familiar with.
I'm now working on MyEcoSpace.net in my spare time, but unfortunately I
don't have much spare time at the moment. There are various people writing
commercial applications with it though. It makes more sense to me to
discuss any problems you may have in the ECO NG rather than assuming that it
is beta and nobody uses it (what a strange conclusion).
--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions,
FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com
My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Quote
and so few documentation
By the way, have you read the various documentation available? It has been
linked to numerous times in the ECO NG, most recently only a couple of days
ago:
========================
The ECO Book from Alois is one of the best I see before.
Many thanks to him.
www.ecospace.de/en_ecobook.html
Also ECO Services from Peter Morris is complete enoght:
myecospace.net/Eco3Services.pdf
Some quick starts can be found at Borland's Wiki:
homepages.borland.com/ecoteam/pmwiki/pmwiki.php
Many useful information is on blogs:
blogs.borland.com/andersivner/
www.bitwisemag.com/copy/delphi/swart/blog1.html
blogs.borland.com/jonashogstrom/
blogs.borland.com/jesperhogstrom/category/150.aspx
www.malcolmgroves.com/categories/eco/index.html
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
And you may also find a number of free articles at
www.drbob42.com/eco
Another place is
www.cq.co.za/index.asp
========================
--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions,
FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com
My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Hi Peter,
I know you are an ECO enthuastic (based on your multiple post on the NG). So
we are. that is why we decided to embrace this technology. But the fact is
that, every single different thing we try to do on ECO comes with thousand
of difficulties, crawling the web for answers and sometimes, in the worst
cases, no answer, workaround or just a known bug.
You can take this conclusion from the NG itself, just a fell developers
posting a lot of questions in different threads. The ones trying to use it
are facing a lot of problems and finding no answer for it.
I am just afraid that ECO becomes a new Kylix (and all the time and money I
lost with it come to my mind): a highly attractive tool, that with the time,
low activity, poor Borland support and unsolved problems falled in the
ostracism. And what happens to all the developers that moved to this new
technology?
This is just an alert. Borland must care more about its new products.
Regards,
Bruno
"Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software]" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote in
message news:44867e1b$XXXX@XXXXX.COM...
Quote
>and so few documentation that it seems that we are the only ones using
>it.

Then it seems you do not actually read the small amount of traffic in the
ECO newsgroup :-)

I for one wrote howtodothings.com in ECO, it was a very popular site too.
So popular in fact that somebody approached my with a financial offer that
was high enough to persuade me to part with it. They rewrote it in PHP
because that is what they are familiar with.

I'm now working on MyEcoSpace.net in my spare time, but unfortunately I
don't have much spare time at the moment. There are various people
writing commercial applications with it though. It makes more sense to me
to discuss any problems you may have in the ECO NG rather than assuming
that it is beta and nobody uses it (what a strange conclusion).


--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions,
FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com

My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/

 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Quote
>and so few documentation

By the way, have you read
I am actually curious about this myself. Can you tell me which of the
links you provided address the original question? That is how to add GUI
features, like a custom database-like grid, et al., using ECO?
Thanks,
Kevin
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Quote
But the fact is that, every single different thing we try to do on ECO
comes with thousand of difficulties
I think conversations are much more productive if exaggeration is avoided
:-) I think another fact worth mentioning is that you don't seem to have
asked for help in the ECO newsgroup. A search within that group using
groups.google.com reveals no results for any of the following:
Bruno Marotta
XXXX@XXXXX.COM
kopf.com.br
You can not go complaining that there are no answers if you are not willing to
ask a question.
Quote
crawling the web for answers and sometimes, in the worst cases, no answer,
workaround or just a known bug.
Well that is not my experience at all. In most cases I see a solution, after
that I see a work around, then if neither of those are the case I see the
first every occurences of Borland staff working on a hot-fix and releasing
it. We only get no solution if all other avenues have been exhausted and a
hot fix is not possible.
Quote
You can take this conclusion from the NG itself
Well, *you* can :-)
Quote
posting a lot of questions in different threads. The ones trying to use it
are facing a lot of problems and finding no answer for it.
Hmm, I see the opposite. I see people asking questions as can be expected
with new tools (especially when they are a new concept too), but I also see
lots of answers too.
I really don't see how you have come to any of the conclusions that you
have.
--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions,
FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com
My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Quote
>
I am actually curious about this myself. Can you tell me which of the
links you provided address the original question? That is how to add GUI
features, like a custom database-like grid, et al., using ECO?
<<
The only original question I saw was answered, the one about real-life
applications using ECO. There are others too, one of them I believe is a
solution used in a chain of shops selling ski equipment.
If you have a technical question about ECO I'd suggest asking it in the
correct newsgroup.
--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions,
FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com
My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Quote
The only original question I saw was answered, the one about real-life
applications using ECO.
Very well, for clarification, the original post contained a
pre-description scenario which I consider as a unanswered inquiry, which I
worded perhaps badly as the "original question".
If you wish to hold tight to replying only issues in sentences which end
with a question mark, good enough.
But it seems to me using this reason to wiggling out of answering my
question "how to add GUI features, like a custom database-like grid, et
al., using ECO?" lends me to think you have no specific links at the
moment that you can provide me.
Quote
There are others too, one of them I believe is a
solution used in a chain of shops selling ski equipment.
Excellent. I'd be most appreciative if you could provide a link (or
indicate which one of the links you provided is the ski shop example).
Quote
If you have a technical question about ECO I'd suggest asking it in
the correct newsgroup.
So you have a plethora of generic links, but nothing specific at this
time. Okay.
Kevin
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Quote
There are others too, one of them I believe is a
solution used in a chain of shops selling ski equipment.
<<
Excellent. I'd be most appreciative if you could provide a link (or
indicate which one of the links you provided is the ski shop example).
Quote
>
That was an application built by{*word*106} Walker in Australia (NSW, I believe).
I understand he had a good deal of collaboration with Borland's Tim Jarvis
in the construction of the application.
Another application being built in ECO is the Australian Delphi Users Group
(ADUG) redevelopment of the current CGI membership system. Mathias Burbach
(Treasurer of ADUG) is in charge of that project, or at least he was and it
was in ECO last time I was in the loop for that project. If you have
questions about the ADUG ECO project, you might be able to reach Mathias at
the email address Mathias period Burbach atsymbol bigfoot period com.
I believe Steve Arena of Arena Technologies (contact: Steve atsymbol period
nett period au) in Australia is building an ordering system using ECO.
Borland have also mentioned that some large organisations like EDS are doing
evaluations of ECO to do a cost/benefit analysis of what it can do for them
and whether it is ready for wider use yet.
And of course you have Peter Morris's ECO webpage which did well
commercially.
Overall, my impression is that it is possible to build real world
applications with ECO, but it is for the trailblazers willing to invest a lot
of work in mastering the ECO technology and learning its tricks, traps and
workarounds - it is not ready for the masses yet.
I look forward to hearing/seeing what they do for ECO 4!
HTH
Lauchlan Mackinnon
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Hi
Quote
>
If you wish to hold tight to replying only issues in sentences which end
with a question mark, good enough.
<<
Actually no I don't, but I do only reply to people with good manners and who
appreciate my help. I have limited spare time and any help I provide is
purely out of good will, I have better things to do than to waste it on
people who make insulting remarks such as yours.
Quote
>
But it seems to me using this reason to wiggling out of answering my
question "how to add GUI features, like a custom database-like grid, et
al., using ECO?" lends me to think you have no specific links at the
moment that you can provide me.
<<
It's more of a case of you wiggling out of actually asking anything. Your
question is completely meaningless to me, try forgetting for a minute that
you know what you are talking about and then re-read it. I have no reason
to wiggle out of any questions.
Quote
>
Excellent. I'd be most appreciative if you could provide a link (or
indicate which one of the links you provided is the ski shop example).
<<
groups.google.com - I searched for the word "ski" in the ECO
newsgroup and it was the first two items in the list (both threads having a
happy ending btw). Now you have the name of the person who wrote the
application you can either email him directly or post in the correct
newsgroup.
Quote
>
So you have a plethora of generic links, but nothing specific at this
time. Okay.
<<
I have links about many things, but unless you are specific about what you
want then *nobody* can help you.
You've posted a reply to somebody else's thread asking about "the original
question" (which was answered) and then gone on to refer to a completely
different question, the question you then pose from what I can see has no
meaning at all, and finally you go on to be rude to me for no apparent
reason whatsoever.
I'm really quite lost as to what to say.
--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions,
FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com
My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Finally I have a large project to implement early next year or late this
year for a "small" company named Imperial Tobacco. I wouldn't be
implementing a project of this size in ECO unless I knew for a fact that it
could cope with the challenge.
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Quote
Finally I have a large project to implement early next year or late this
year for a "small" company named Imperial Tobacco. I wouldn't be
implementing a project of this size in ECO unless I knew for a fact that
it
could cope with the challenge.
Uh huh. Good for you (and Borland)!
But the point is not so much whether you *can* produce commercial apps with
ECO but whether the payoffs for the effort required to learn and master ECO
are worth it for somebody starting from scratch with a new project and no
ECO experience. Could one acheive much the same functional results with,
say, RemObjects Data Abstract and an additional ASP.NET layer drawing on
that RO/DA business logic? Is that a more productive path to go down, or
ECO?
Lauchlan M
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Quote
But the point is not so much whether you *can* produce commercial apps
with
ECO but whether the payoffs for the effort required to learn and master
ECO
are worth it for somebody starting from scratch with a new project and no
ECO experience. Could one acheive much the same functional results with,
say, RemObjects Data Abstract and an additional ASP.NET layer drawing on
that RO/DA business logic? Is that a more productive path to go down, or
ECO?
I don't like comparisons like this but I can not think of any other response.
Nobody take this literally, it is not an accurate comparison but merely an
illustration :-) If you were an ASM coder, would it be worth learning a
high level language + OOP + best practises? Learning this stuff could take
you at least a year, but would it be worth it?
Ofcourse we both know the answer (for business apps) is "Yes", but if you
were proficient with ASM and didn't know first hand the benefits of these
new ideas (and hardly knew anyone else who did either) what would your
answer be then?
This is the thing with ECO. There are lots of people in oodesign who will
tell you that writing business classes and having a good object persistence
framework is a brilliant idea, because it clearly separates your applicatino
logic and makes it much more maintainable, so at least you can get part of
your answer. ECO is much more than an OPF though, it is more of a business
layer framework.
I was fortunate enough to have found Bold back in about 2001, so when ECO
came along I was already familiar with the approach and was able to pick it
up quite quickly. Do I remember struggling with Bold? Too right I do! Did
I see the point of it? Absolutely not! Once the penny dropped was I glad I
learned it? Damned right I am!
Taking this route of development not only requires you to learn ECO. It
enables to design applications in a way that you didn't think of before, it
is similar to the difference between procedural programming and OOP because
you get to use inheritance / polymorphism etc when working with your
database!
Once I got to the point with Bold where I felt I was able to get it to do
anything I could already do with SQL/RDBMS I thought I knew it all. Off I
went and wrote the most awful application I have ever written :-) It was
then that I realised I also had to learn how to "design" applications
correctly. This is a path I am still on (along with learning everything ECO
does, I still don't know it all) but my design skills have improved a lot
and I am very pleased at the moment with how I solve design problems.
So, in answer to the original question "Should you use it for a new app".
Well that really depends, but it would with *any* new development tools. If
it is an application that you have lots of time to write (as you learn) or
it is a personal project that you can dump if you get bored then certainly
give it a go. If it is critical that the app is implemented in a specific
deadline etc then you would be made to switch to any new tool for such a
project.
You should really do what I did with Bold. Write your main applications the
way you currently do, but also write a single low priority app in ECO or
learn it at home. Only once you are confident with your ability to use a
tool should you decide if you should use it or not. I know that I would
have needed a much bigger development team to write some of the stuff I am
now writing on my own if it wasn't for the OPF approach, and ECO is like OPF
on steroids!
I hope I didn't bore you :-)
--
Pete
====
Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions,
FastStrings
www.droopyeyes.com
My blog
blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/
 

Re:Is anybody using ECO?

Bruno Marotta writes:
Quote
I think that Mr. Lauchlan's point view just corroborates mine: Perhaps
Borland is shipping a poorly documented, half-implemented, full of "tricks,
traps and workarounds" solution that may be one of the last bastions of the
Delphi legacy. Poor we.
I think with that kind of attitude towards things you will never learn
anything. Be it ECO or any other technical aspect.
--
Holger
Blog: www.flickdotnet.de