Board index » delphi » Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?


2007-10-12 05:44:24 AM
delphi283
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:06:39 +0200, Chris Pattinson (CodeGear)
<XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes:
Quote

Everytime I start getting used to it, even starting to like it, it does
something like auto-reboots on me after having downloaded a windows,
since the countdown timer was buried behind another window. And it
always does that in the middle of some work, while I am 'in the groove'
;-)

All I can say is - good thing for auto saves...


I think, whoever came with that 'feature' should be subjected to a very
long and inhuman torture.
Just the sole idea that a system update is a priority number one over
everything...oh we're in deep luck that MS is not producing cars... ;)
We had this problem at university, when the students were doing electronic
entrace exams. And in the middle of the test half of the computers
rebooted. Now that was a huge amount of anger, i think it could've been
measured in tons. Next year, the exams were running on Fedora ;)
 
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Quote
Vista is more important to big business than it is for the end users.
It's especially important to microsoft because they make money by
selling new versions, whether people want them or not.
I'd say it was the other way around.
Big businesses do not need Vista - a locked-down XP network
is already pretty secure. And the hassle of moving everyone to
Vista, and re-training people to use a new interface is going to
take ages.
Business users are not bothered about improved plug and play, or
new ways to search for your photos.
I think Vista is a new shiny thing for home users who need
protecting from themselves, that is why the UAC/administrator
stuff is so agressive.
cheers,
Chris
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Quote
What exactly was worth it except the eye-candy that you appear to like ?
What frustrated you in XP that you now have a solution, benefit for ?
Were the benefits you received worth over 5 years effort of a huge team
at Microsoft ?
By that reasoning, why did we all move to XP, when 2000 worked just fine?
I am happy with Vista, all my hardware works as it should, I have had no major
dramas with most of my software. I am not saying it is all rainbows and
ponies, yes it has issues, but just like XP had issues on launch.
The improvements to Explorer alone are a big seller to me. For example, the
ability to turn on checkboxes next to filenames to allow random file
selection without touching the keyboard is great. The grouping ability is
also very good, we deal with a lot of files due to the number of projects
running.
Even simple things like being able to write DVDs without a 3rd party program
is great - if I am burning straight files, I find it much easier to just
select, right click and send to my burner. Yes XP could do this, but not
with DVDs, only CDs.
The desktop search built in everywhere I must admit I don't use a whole lot,
except the run line in the start menu - that is an excellent feature. I
don't want to navigate through all my program folders to find something,
being able to type just a few letters is a much better concept. There are a
few 3rd party utilities for this kind of stuff, but being built into the OS
is a great move.
Lets see... I use the Sidebar quite a lot - I have network monitoring
widgets in there, along with ones that tie into my Outlook. I can keep
Outlook minimised and still have access to my task list.
The image browsing is much better, particularly as a company that deals with
a lot of photos and generated graphics. it is still not brilliant, but
tagging images is just so much easier now.
The Vista firewall (when you turn on Advanced Security) is so much better
than the XP one it is not even a contest.
It handles wireless networks much better than XP.
I could go on for quite a while with all the things I find very useful in
Vista. Can I live without these? Sure - but I could also drive a 10 year old
car, since it gets me from A ->B just fine, but I choose not to.
I can understand that you are not happy with it, but that is not the
experience in our office, with 5 machines on Vista since launch. We work
primarily with small business, and quite a few of them are now buying new
machines that come with Vista. Aside from the teething problems and learning
the new UI, most make the switch without too much drama.
Quote
At the expense of usability ?
Like removing menus in Explorer, Internet Explorer ? I was like *really*
waiting for getting
my menus removed (and yes I know I can press Alt)
I don't have an opinion on this, since I don't use IE. Interestingly though,
there is an update to IE7 coming which turns the menus back on by default.
Quote
>And if they delivered something that looked just like XP, there would be
>just as much of an outcry.
>
>It's hard to find a winning position really....

They could have delivered something that looked different but had a better
usability.
They apparently had a hard look at OS-X but didn't get the point and just
created a mess
with copying some OS-X features and mixing them with their own bad ideas.
Spend some time on a Mac and you will find that it is just as much of a mess
interface wise as Windows. Maybe I am just biased, but I cannot stand OSX.
Cheers,
Dave
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

"Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB)" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>wrote
Quote
Andre Kaufmann <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>
writes:
[...]

in which he's placed. While it is a problem everywhere,
the diverse
nature of linux clients make it hard to target any single
fault (since
even a successful attack won't necessarily yield
significant results.)
Applications perhaps. But the core components, kernel etc.
should be similar on each Linux distribution.
Quote
[...]
Chris (TeamB);
Andre
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Quote
By that reasoning, why did we all move to XP, when 2000 worked just fine?
My pc at home is under 2K.
And I will never change unless I buy a new PC with a new OS pre-installed.
Quote
I am happy with Vista, all my hardware works as it should, I have had no
major dramas with most of my software. I am not saying it is all rainbows
and ponies, yes it has issues, but just like XP had issues on launch.
What I don't get is that people here are talking from a professionnal POV or
a personnal POV ? If it is the first one then why people are arguing ?
There's simply absolutely *no* productivity gain to moving to Vista.
It only costs money. From a professionnal POV if someone says the contrary
and tells me he/she is earning more money thanks to Vista, it is only because
he/she has sold updates of his/her program !
From a personnal POV, for sure, it is eye candy. it is exactly the same for
the "blobby" windows with Ubuntu : after 3 hours it gets on your nerves, and
you disable the option. These are options that are nice but it is not like
you couldn't live without it.
Quote

The improvements to Explorer alone are a big seller to me. For example,
the ability to turn on checkboxes next to filenames to allow random file
selection without touching the keyboard is great.
Without touching the keyboard ? Well. You are almost 2 times more productive
if you use cleverly both your mouse and your keyboard, than if you just use
your keyboard. There's absolutely no interest in that.
Quote
The grouping ability is also very good, we deal with a lot of files
due to the number of projects running.
It seems like it is an idea that is been running for more than... say... TEN
years under Linux, right ?
Quote

Even simple things like being able to write DVDs without a 3rd party
program is great - if I am burning straight files, I find it much easier
to just select, right click and send to my burner. Yes XP could do this,
but not with DVDs, only CDs.
If you burn a lot of DVDs for your work I do agree this is nice.
Quote
The desktop search built in everywhere I must admit I don't use a whole
lot, except the run line in the start menu - that is an excellent
feature. I don't want to navigate through all my program folders to find
something, being able to type just a few letters is a much better
concept. There are a few 3rd party utilities for this kind of stuff, but
being built into the OS is a great move.
This is pure {*word*99}. NB : the idea is _good_. But the way it is done slows
down your PC and really quickly brings it to its knees. If you're like my
boss and install 2 programs a day, you will end up waiting 10 s before Word
2007 is opened. 10 s for any app actually.
Quote
Lets see... I use the Sidebar quite a lot - I have network monitoring
widgets in there, along with ones that tie into my Outlook. I can keep
Outlook minimised and still have access to my task list.
The bug of Outlook asking again and agin for a password still hasn't been
solved and I have tried every single solution Microsoft gives in their site,
and even with the Microsoft experts at the phone (Microsoft SAV in French).
Quote

The image browsing is much better, particularly as a company that deals
with a lot of photos and generated graphics. it is still not brilliant,
but tagging images is just so much easier now.
After more than ten years and thousands of people working on it do you
really find _normal_ for an OS to say "It's still not brilliant" and pay a
so damn expensive license ?
Quote

The Vista firewall (when you turn on Advanced Security) is so much
better than the XP one it is not even a contest.
See previous comment.
Quote

It handles wireless networks much better than XP.

See previous comment.
Quote
I could go on for quite a while with all the things I find very useful
in Vista. Can I live without these? Sure - but I could also drive a 10
year old car, since it gets me from A ->B just fine, but I choose not to.

I can understand that you are not happy with it, but that is not the
experience in our office, with 5 machines on Vista since launch. We work
primarily with small business, and quite a few of them are now buying
new machines that come with Vista. Aside from the teething problems and
learning the new UI, most make the switch without too much drama.
You're the only one I know.
Tell my 58 years old secretary to switch to Vista and you will see what you
get. you will hear what you get to be precise.
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Olivier Pons writes:
Quote
The bug of Outlook asking again and agin for a password still hasn't
been solved and I have tried every single solution Microsoft gives in
their site, and even with the Microsoft experts at the phone (Microsoft
SAV in French).
This particular one is bugging me as well. Outlook 2003 on Vista,
communicating with an Exchange 2003 server on Windows server
2003.
If you ever find a solution, *please* let me know !
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net"
from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact
including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to
counteract unsollicited mail.)
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Paul writes:
Quote
The why are all our buniness clients switching back to XP?
Only hobbyists seems to like it here.
Not to mention the bugs we encounter here
I think the learning curve is too steep, overwhelming IT support
personnel. Talking about reducing TCO ...
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net"
from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact
including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to
counteract unsollicited mail.)
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Steve Thackery writes:
Quote
Since I installed Vista in January 2007 I have run it
continuously with NO ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE of any description (or any
other third-party security software). I have left the out-of-the-box
firewall and malware protection completely alone - they are running with
their default settings and are completely invisible.
Talking about which. I have installed NOD32 as a virus scanner wchich
I like a lot for its efficiency.
Should I (and can I) disable Windows defender ? Having two scanners
active at a time slows the PC down, right?
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net"
from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact
including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to
counteract unsollicited mail.)
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

If you want eye-candy here you go :
www.notwen.org/img/uf_sept01-busy.png
Anyway tell me what's the point from a daily user POV ?
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Quote
>By that reasoning, why did we all move to XP, when 2000 worked just fine?

My pc at home is under 2K.
And I will never change unless I buy a new PC with a new OS pre-installed.
Ok, that was phrased badly :) Those of us who *did* move to XP... I still
happen to think that Win2K was one of the best OS's ever to come out of
Redmond. I was also a big fan of NT4.
Quote
>I am happy with Vista, all my hardware works as it should, I have had no
>major dramas with most of my software. I am not saying it is all rainbows
>and ponies, yes it has issues, but just like XP had issues on launch.

What I don't get is that people here are talking from a professionnal POV
or a personnal POV ? If it is the first one then why people are arguing ?
There's simply absolutely *no* productivity gain to moving to Vista.
Perhaps for you. Personally I disagree, there are enough small enhancements
that make it worth my while. Sure, I could probably achieve all of this on
XP with a bunch of 3rd party tools, but that is not the argument here.
Quote
It only costs money. From a professionnal POV if someone says the contrary
and tells me he/she is earning more money thanks to Vista, it is only
because he/she has sold updates of his/her program !
We write dedicated systems rather than 'off the shelf' software, so don't
sell upgrades.
Quote
From a personnal POV, for sure, it is eye candy. it is exactly the same for
the "blobby" windows with Ubuntu : after 3 hours it gets on your nerves,
and you disable the option. These are options that are nice but it is not
like you couldn't live without it.
That's what I thought about Aero during the beta stages - but it is many
months later, and I still have it turned on.
Quote
>The improvements to Explorer alone are a big seller to me. For example,
>the ability to turn on checkboxes next to filenames to allow random file
>selection without touching the keyboard is great.

Without touching the keyboard ? Well. You are almost 2 times more
productive if you use cleverly both your mouse and your keyboard, than if
you just use your keyboard. There's absolutely no interest in that.
Let's not get into petty squabbles. Yes I use both keyboard and mouse... but
the very fact that should I choose not to use the keyboard, I can still
select random files. Here's one for you... try explaining to a non
computer-literate user over the phone that they need to hold control, then
click (not drag) files while holding the phone :) I have been there many
times, and it is not fun.
Quote
>The grouping ability is also very good, we deal with a lot of files
>due to the number of projects running.

It seems like it is an idea that is been running for more than... say... TEN
years under Linux, right ?
Possibly - but we are not talking about that. For me, there is no
marketplace with Linux.
Quote
>The desktop search built in everywhere I must admit I don't use a whole
>lot, except the run line in the start menu - that is an excellent
>feature. I don't want to navigate through all my program folders to find
>something, being able to type just a few letters is a much better
>concept. There are a few 3rd party utilities for this kind of stuff, but
>being built into the OS is a great move.

This is pure {*word*99}. NB : the idea is _good_. But the way it is done slows
down your PC and really quickly brings it to its knees. If you're like my
boss and install 2 programs a day, you will end up waiting 10 s before Word
2007 is opened. 10 s for any app actually.
Sorry, my experience is different. This will depend on your PC of course,
but on my machine, as soon as I start typing in the box, results start
coming up straight away.
Let's not forget, Bruno was asking what gains I got personally from Vista -
for me, the instant search is gain, for others maybe not.
Quote
The bug of Outlook asking again and agin for a password still hasn't been
solved and I have tried every single solution Microsoft gives in their site,
and even with the Microsoft experts at the phone (Microsoft SAV in
French).
But that is not Vistas fault. I do see this bug every now and then (I have
11 email accounts set up), but it is very rare, and for me, goes away after 2
or 3 clicks on OK.
Quote
After more than ten years and thousands of people working on it do you
really find _normal_ for an OS to say "It's still not brilliant" and pay a
so damn expensive license ?
It's better than the previous version - and for me that is what matters. I
would call this an evolution not a revolution. I don't want a full image
management system built into the OS. that is not what it is about. But if it
lets me do small tasks quickly and efficiently, then I consider it a
benefit.
Quote
>The Vista firewall (when you turn on Advanced Security) is so much better
>than the XP one it is not even a contest.

See previous comment.
And see mine :)
Quote
>It handles wireless networks much better than XP.
>

See previous comment.
And again...
Quote
>I can understand that you are not happy with it, but that is not the
>experience in our office, with 5 machines on Vista since launch. We work
>primarily with small business, and quite a few of them are now buying new
>machines that come with Vista. Aside from the teething problems and
>learning the new UI, most make the switch without too much drama.

You're the only one I know.
Tell my 58 years old secretary to switch to Vista and you will see what you
get. you will hear what you get to be precise.
But then isn't it wonderful that we have a choice not to switch. Never once
did I say that everyone should upgrade...
I do find it interesting that a good proportion of those people who dislike
or hate Vista like to tell the ones who do like it that they are wrong :)
Cheers,
Dave
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Quote
Talking about which. I have installed NOD32 as a virus scanner wchich
I like a lot for its efficiency.

Should I (and can I) disable Windows defender ? Having two scanners
active at a time slows the PC down, right?
Keep in mind that Defender is not a virus scanner. it is a spyware/adware
detection utility... that said, Defender is not all that great... either
that or it is really silent when it does find something bad :)
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Quote
If you ever find a solution, *please* let me know !
I think it is called "XP"
Paul
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

Quote
Applications perhaps. But the core components, kernel etc. should be
similar on each Linux distribution.
I think this is the real problem of Linux.
Maybe there's som hope for the future: IBM, Sun and Intel are working on a
Linux standard.
I hope they'll get the job done
Paul
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

"David Ridgway" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>What exactly was worth it except the eye-candy that you appear to like ?
>What frustrated you in XP that you now have a solution, benefit for ?
>Were the benefits you received worth over 5 years effort of a huge team
>at Microsoft ?

By that reasoning, why did we all move to XP, when 2000 worked just fine?
1) Because XP has better resource and VM management, which allows more
programs running than Windows 2000
2) Because it has better driver support and software compatibility than
Windows 2000
3) Because it has very large hard disk support straight out of the box, which
Windows 2000 hasn't got
4) Because it supports more modern hardware than Windows 2000
...
Now, if you could produce a similar list for the actual (not eye-candy)
advantages of Vista over XP, let's see it...
--
Mark Jacobs
DK Computing
www.dkcomputing.co.uk
 

Re: So, what's the verdict on Vista?

"Paul" <XXXX@XXXXX.COM>writes
Quote
>If you ever find a solution, *please* let me know !

I think it is called "XP"
No, it happens under XP too. It really annoys me too. can not they just keep the
password alive for every session logged in, and expire it when logged off or
PC powered up? I dunno, these Redmond wallies can not even talk to each other
properly when designing these things...
--
Mark Jacobs
DK Computing
www.dkcomputing.co.uk