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Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN


2004-04-20 02:16:54 AM
off-topic14
Quote
>In my experience Paradox tables are easily corrupted.
it's rare that I ever want to take issue with something you've said, but
this time I'll make an exception.. <g>
I did say "In my experience", but I'll rephrase anyway. <g>
In *my experience* using Paradox was a nightmare and it was extremely easy
to get corrupted indices. Having corrupt indices meant users got all kinds
of errors and couldn't use our software...so from their perspective...the
database was corrupt.
We had numerous occasions where the Paradox table (the DAT file, not the
index) would get truncated from several MB to a few bytes thus losing every
single byte of data in the database. One user's PC locking up or dropped
network connections often caused index corruption. Paradox corruption
problems was THE reason we became IB VARs.
Granted, we did have some bonehead customers that used Paradox because it
was free and would use it with 60 or 100 concurrent users--despite us
begging them not to. One customer finally got a SQL server after three
consecutive days of having the data file truncated to 120 bytes and
restoring from backup. However, we had problems with just 10 or 20 users as
well.
We eventually resolved all of the problems by changing our policy to only
support Paradox for single-user usage and requiring people with more than
one user to have a SQL (IB, Oracle, MS SQL Server, Sybase or Informix)
server.
David R.
Oh yeah, I didn't even mention all of the BDE installation nightmares that
Corel caused either. :)
 
 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

"David R. Robinson" wrote:
Quote
One user's PC locking up or dropped network connections
often caused index corruption.

======
Not a Paradox issue.
Quote
Granted, we did have some bonehead customers that used
Paradox because it was free and would use it with 60 or 100
concurrent users

========
Should not be a Paradox or BDE problem either.
Quote
However, we had problems with just 10 or 20 users as well.

========
You shouldn't
Quote
We eventually resolved all of the problems by changing our
policy to only support Paradox for single-user usage and
requiring people with more than one user to have a SQL
(IB, Oracle, MS SQL Server, Sybase or Informix) server.

===========
Sounds like over kill.
Quote
Oh yeah, I didn't even mention all of the BDE installation
nightmares that Corel caused either. :)

============
Corel users experience nightmares from badly written Delphi applications
too.
The bottom line is:
1. Write code that checks the BDE configuration and sets it
correctly (automatically) when your application begins.
2. Be a nice neighbor and write your code to re-set the BDE
config back to the way you found it so other applications
that depend on the BDE won't be cursing your application.
(even though they should be responsible for checking BDE
settings from with in their own App too.)
3. If your customers hardware is failing, identify the problems
"correctly" and explain to your customer that they need to
correct the problem, rather then falsely blaming the BDE
or Paradox tables.
4. Write a simple "Table Repair Repair Utility" and include
it within your application so simple problems such as indexes
can be easily repaired by your customer.
5. Don't underestimate the power of the BDE and Paradox tables.
--
...
`?¸¸.·´¯`?¸¸.·´¯`?>rodney
 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

If you use and love Paradox more power to you. I'm not saying Paradox isn't
for some people. Obviously there are plenty of cases where it works great.
That just wasn't the case for me. I'm saying that IN MY EXPERIENCE it was
not a good solution at all for us. I know of many other people that feel
the same way too.
Quote
>One user's PC locking up or dropped network connections
>often caused index corruption.
======
Not a Paradox issue.
It is when that corrupts the index or tables. There's no way you can
prevent someone's PC or network connection from dropping. A database system
that gets corrupted when this happens isn't very reliable IMHO--that's why
people use client/server or multi-tier database sytems. Someone using a
client/server database (MS SQL, IB, Sybase, Informix, DB2, Oracle, etc.)
that has a user's PC or network connection drop isn't going to get a corrupt
database or index because only the server process is manipulating the
database.
Quote
>Granted, we did have some bonehead customers that used
>Paradox because it was free and would use it with 60 or 100
>concurrent users
========
Should not be a Paradox or BDE problem either.
ANY file based database (access, pdox, dbase, etc.) where the clients are
all directly manipulating the data and index files is going to have problems
when you have 100 concurrent users all hitting the database simultaneously.
Quote
>However, we had problems with just 10 or 20 users as well.
========
You shouldn't
We did. In theory, Windows should run without needing a reboot either. In
theory, your hard drive will last for 10 years too.
Quote
>We eventually resolved all of the problems by changing our
>policy to only support Paradox for single-user usage and
>requiring people with more than one user to have a SQL
>(IB, Oracle, MS SQL Server, Sybase or Informix) server.
===========
Sounds like over kill.
It worked and was the best decision for us.
Quote
>Oh yeah, I didn't even mention all of the BDE installation
>nightmares that Corel caused either. :)
============
Corel users experience nightmares from badly written Delphi applications
too.
Perhaps, but I'm talking about BDE installations which Corel was notorious
for not doing a proper BDE installation. For example, their installer would
overwrite BDE 3.5 with BDE 3.0 or force the installation into c:\Corel. My
BDE installations never replaced a newer version with an older version.
Quote
The bottom line is:
1. Write code that checks the BDE configuration and sets it
correctly (automatically) when your application begins.
Or better yet, don't use the BDE or Paradox.
Quote
2. Be a nice neighbor and write your code to re-set the BDE
config back to the way you found it so other applications
that depend on the BDE won't be cursing your application.
(even though they should be responsible for checking BDE
settings from with in their own App too.)
All decent installations do this. Mine did. Corel's didn't.
Quote
3. If your customers hardware is failing, identify the problems
"correctly" and explain to your customer that they need to
correct the problem, rather then falsely blaming the BDE
or Paradox tables.
ROFL! Yeah, right. This was an enterprise scale commerical application
that was deployed to over 150,000 users and over 600 organizations world
wide. A better solution was to do what we did--require a client/server
database engine and drop Paradox support.
It is nice to know that you have time to help all of your customers diagnose
when they have a bad NIC.
Quote
4. Write a simple "Table Repair Repair Utility" and include
it within your application so simple problems such as indexes
can be easily repaired by your customer.
We shipped one with it. That doesn't solve the problem. When 100 users
can't enter their time and the company's revenue is based on their time
entries, they don't have time to be down while someone is running a database
index repair function. Down time is lost revenue.
Quote
5. Don't underestimate the power of the BDE and Paradox tables.
Don't overestimate the ability of Paradox either. That's what we did in
1995 and 1996 and we paid a price for doing so.
Again, I'm not saying Paradox doesn't work for some people. It does. It
just doesn't work for me.
David R.
 

{smallsort}

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

"David R. Robinson" wrote:
Quote
ANY file based database (access, pdox, dbase, etc.) where the clients are all
directly manipulating the data and index files is going to have problems when
you have 100 concurrent users all hitting the database simultaneously.
I absolutely agree..
Quote
I'm talking about BDE installations which Corel was notorious for not doing a
proper BDE installation. For example, their installer would overwrite BDE 3.5
with BDE 3.0 or force the installation into c:\Corel.
or, their crowning achievement.. ship the BDE with OEM Dell machines, and have
the default .net file look for A: <sigh>
Quote
This was an enterprise scale commerical application that was deployed to over
150,000 users and over 600 organizations world wide.
FWIW, I would *never* consider a BDE-based app for deployment of this nature..
wouldn't have done it then, wouldn't do it now..
Quote
Don't overestimate the ability of Paradox either. That's what we did in 1995
and 1996 and we paid a price for doing so.
thanks for taking the time to put your comments in perspective.. makes perfect
sense now..
Diamond Software Group
www.diamondsg.com/main.htm
Paradox Support & Sales - Corel CTech Paradox
---------------------------------------------------
Diamond Sports Gems
www.diamondsg.com/gemsmain.htm
Trading Cards and other Sports Memorabilia
---------------------------------------------------
 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

Quote
>or, their crowning achievement.. ship the BDE with OEM Dell machines, and
have the default .net file look for A: <sigh>
LOL, I don't think I ever saw that one.
Quote
>FWIW, I would *never* consider a BDE-based app for deployment of this
nature.. wouldn't have done it then, wouldn't do it now..
Keep in mind that this was 9 years ago when client/server was the hot
buzzword and it was not a very mature technology. We *HAD* to support
multiple databases. You can't go to a prospect that has 2500 users that is
an Oracle shop and tell them that they have to install SQL Server to use
your software. They'll just say sorry, we spent $1,000,000 on Oracle as our
standard, we'll just find someone who has software that will run on Oracle.
We were a Turbo Pascal shop. The BDE was a great solution for what we
needed at the time. We had one code base that worked very well for multiple
databases. We didn't have to branch the code at all except for table/index
creation in the admin utility. We did look at numerous alternatives, but
the BDE was the best solution for us at that time. We started looking at it
before Delphi 1.0 and even went to a seminar Borland hosted about it way
before it was called the BDE.
Obviously it's not so great now since the BDE is depricated and Borland
hasn't really done anything to it in about 5 years. Today I would never use
the BDE for any new project of any size because Borland is never going to do
any updates to the BDE.
Quote
thanks for taking the time to put your comments in perspective.. makes
perfect
sense now..
Glad I cleared it up.
David R.
 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

"David R. Robinson" wrote:
Quote
Keep in mind that this was 9 years ago when client/server was the hot
buzzword and it was not a very mature technology. We *HAD* to support
multiple databases.
yep.. that was supposed to be the main attraction of the early Delphi buzz..
easily interchangeable underlying platforms, as long as you adhered to generic
naming conventions that would fit 'em all..
Diamond Software Group
www.diamondsg.com/main.htm
Paradox Support & Sales - Corel CTech Paradox
---------------------------------------------------
Diamond Sports Gems
www.diamondsg.com/gemsmain.htm
Trading Cards and other Sports Memorabilia
---------------------------------------------------
 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

I have read all the rants but no one has mentioned any tweaks I can make to stop the constant chattering on the Network. Does anyone have any other suggestions besides Liz ? It would really be appreciated. I am going to forward some of these responses to the Contact pro guys and see what they have to say. Thanks again.
Steven Green < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote
"David R. Robinson" wrote:

>Keep in mind that this was 9 years ago when client/server was the hot
>buzzword and it was not a very mature technology. We *HAD* to support
>multiple databases.

yep.. that was supposed to be the main attraction of the early Delphi buzz..
easily interchangeable underlying platforms, as long as you adhered to generic
naming conventions that would fit 'em all..


--
Steven Green - Waldorf Maryland USA

Diamond Software Group
www.diamondsg.com/main.htm
Paradox Support & Sales - Corel CTech Paradox
---------------------------------------------------
Diamond Sports Gems
www.diamondsg.com/gemsmain.htm
Trading Cards and other Sports Memorabilia
---------------------------------------------------


 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

On 21 Apr 2004 13:07:02 -0700, "Jim" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >wrote:
Quote

I have read all the rants but no one has mentioned any tweaks I can make to stop the constant chattering on the Network.

If the Application uses Paradox tables, then you can't stop the
network traffic. Paradox uses a common server only as FILE SERVER.
The complete database work is done on the workstation. This includes
the SQL engine.
Regards from Germany
Franz-Leo
 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

Jim,
Nothing will reduce the network traffic caused by the BDE except the design
of the app, IMO.
The "slow down disk intensiveness" from the vendor most likely is to turn
off LOCAL SHARE and/or turn on oplocks and caching, which would be a
nightmare, so that more things happen in memory - this isn't going to
significantly decrease network traffic (if at all), and will guarantee
corruption.
Liz
Jim wrote:
Quote

I have read all the rants but no one has mentioned any tweaks I can make to stop the constant chattering on the Network. Does anyone have any other suggestions besides Liz ? It would really be appreciated. I am going to forward some of these responses to the Contact pro guys and see what they have to say. Thanks again.

 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

Jim wrote:
Quote
I have read all the rants but no one has mentioned any tweaks I can make to stop the constant chattering on the Network.
there are no BDE tweaks in that regard.. we've all told you that, too.. network chatter in this regard is a direct fuction of what the app is doing, and how it's being done..
or, to be blunt.. just because a vendor caters to a vertical market with a particular product, doesn't mean the vendor knows what they're doing with that product.. i.e. a well-designed Paradox app isn't gonna bring your network to its knees.. especially if all the app does is play contact manager..
heck.. most poorly-designed ones won't bring your network to its knees, either..
Diamond Software Group
www.diamondsg.com/main.htm
Paradox Support & Sales - Corel CTech Paradox
---------------------------------------------------
Diamond Sports Gems
www.diamondsg.com/gemsmain.htm
Trading Cards and other Sports Memorabilia
---------------------------------------------------
 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

That was my thinking too. That's a high quality network that was described
at the start of this thread. Even the most poorly designed Paradox app
shouldn't even cause that server and its network to blink (unless it's
already almost pegged). (I should know, I got a poorly designed app and 70
concurrent users on worse hardware than that and our NetWare server is a
happy camper.)
There's gotta be something else - the app pointing out that there's faulty
hardware or cabling somewhere (NOTE: I never met a net admin willing to
even _consider_ that idea); power problems; improperly configured network;
virus scanning every access to every file... Something.
Liz
Steven Green wrote:
Quote

heck.. most poorly-designed ones won't bring your network to its knees, either..

 

Re:Re: BDE creating tons of traffic across our LAN

Liz wrote:
Quote
There's gotta be something else - the app pointing out that there's faulty hardware
or cabling somewhere (NOTE: I never met a net admin willing to even _consider_ that
idea); power problems; improperly configured network; virus scanning every access to
every file... Something.
or a stupid app that's doing a continuous loop, polling the server for file changes,
file creation, flag tables, etc...
Diamond Software Group
www.diamondsg.com/main.htm
Paradox Support & Sales - Corel CTech Paradox
---------------------------------------------------
Diamond Sports Gems
www.diamondsg.com/gemsmain.htm
Trading Cards and other Sports Memorabilia
---------------------------------------------------